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The Dems and Fair Taxes
Last Post 21 Sep 2008 10:04 PM by Kelsey Crisp. 113 Replies.
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Wags
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| 24 Aug 2008 09:40 PM |
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Ive been listening to the Dem's and Obama talk about wanting to make the tax system "fair". When someone else is gonna tell me what is "fair" for ME to pay, I worry.
Here's a good explination of our tax system.
Suppose that every day, ten men go out for a beer and the bill for all tem comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes it would go something like this:
The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing
The fifth would pay $1
The sixth would pay $3
The seventh would pay $7
The eighth would pay $12
The ninth would pay $18
the tenth man ( the richest) would pay $59
so, that's what they decided to do.
The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until, one day, the owner thre them a curve. "Since you are all such good customers", he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20." Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.
The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. The would still drink for free. But what about the other six men -- the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his "Fair share"? They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But, if they subtracted that from everybody's share then the fifth and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. so, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay. And so:
the fith man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings)
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33% savings)
The seventh now paid $5 instead of $7 (28% savings)
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings)
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings)
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings)
Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings. "I only got a dollar out of the $20 " declared the sixth man. He pointed o the tenth man "but he got $10"!
yeah, thats right, exclaimed the fifth man "I only saved a dollar, too!"
Its unfair that he got ten times more than I !
Thats true ! Shouted the seventh man "Why should he get $10 back whenI only got $2 ? the wealthy get all the breaks" !
Wait a minute, yelled the first four men in unison, We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor !
The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. The next night the tenth man didn't show u for drinks., so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important, they didn't have enought money between all of them for even half of the bill !
This is what happened under the "Bush" tax cuts. And the dems are telling the first five guys, the 50% that pay no taxes, its unfair. And stupid people believe their lies.
And the Dems say they want the "rich" to pay more of their "fair share"
What if the rich guy just doesn't show up anymore. This is why you cut taxes you increase revenue....Even JFK knew that, its what he did.
Makes ya think....I hope.
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Andy
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| 24 Aug 2008 11:25 PM |
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The problem is the rich don't have the option to not show up. If you don't they will take you to jail.
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Chris
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| 24 Aug 2008 11:29 PM |
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Ah but Wags, didn't you hear? Bush is the evil Satan out to destroy your liberties and steal your money.
Edit:
Andy, they have an option to not show up: The Cayman Islands  |
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"There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order to things." - Niccolo Machiavelli |
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Wags
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| 25 Aug 2008 08:09 AM |
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My boss has the option of closing up and not having to put up with all the BS. They have the option of not investing in new plants or equipment. Anyone ever work for a poor guy? The rich have many options as to what to do with their money. Interesting how many politicians become mega millionares on their public salary. Clintons worth up to $150,000,000, and the American taxpayers are paying his mortgage on their home. Gore has made over $110,000,000 on his "global" warming tour, and takes private jets wherever he goes, talk about carbon foot print. Oboma made $4,500,000 last year, his pastor lives in a $3,000,000 house with a retirement worth at least $10,000,000 and this for leading a "poor church". Least McCain gots his the old fashion way, he married it. |
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Kowboy
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| 25 Aug 2008 09:11 AM |
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Posted By Wags on 08/25/2008 8:09 AM
Least McCain gots his the old fashion way, he married it. Wags: Me too.  Joe |
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Andy
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| 25 Aug 2008 11:44 AM |
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Posted By Kowboy on 08/25/2008 9:11 AM Posted By Wags on 08/25/2008 8:09 AM
Least McCain gots his the old fashion way, he married it. Wags: Me too.  Joe Me three, although I haven't seen the money yet. I see your point Wags about the machinery. I was saying that the rich don't have the option not to show up to pay taxes. No matter what we do we are required to pay.
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Wags
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| 25 Aug 2008 01:51 PM |
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Depending on investments, they can eliminate or greatly lower the amount of taxes they pay. They can stop creating jobs and investing in business when it no longer "pays" them to do so. Do the dems really think they will lower gas prices or increase the amount of gas by taxing the oil companies more ? Don't they understand NO business pays taxes, only individuals pay taxes. A company may collect taxes from its customers, and as such, those taxes are hidden. Many politicians think all Americans are stupid and don't realise that companies always pass on costs to their customers. Are the great problems in this country all due to being undertaxed and under regulated? Dems would have you believe thats the problem. |
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Kowboy
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| 25 Aug 2008 02:04 PM |
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Wags:
I appreciate your efforts to show the Dems for the government gluttons they are, but how can you consistently overlook the guys who consistently out-do them?:
"In the first three years of the Bush administration, government spending has climbed -- in real, inflation-adjusted terms -- by a staggering 15.6 percent. That far outstrips the budget growth in Clinton's first three years, when real spending climbed just 3.5 percent. Under the first President Bush, the comparable figure was 8.3 percent; under Ronald Reagan, 6.8 percent, and under Jimmy Carter, 13.3 percent. No, that's not a mistake: Bush is a bigger spender than Carter was."
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/07/23/ED9088.DTL
Joe
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Andy
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| 25 Aug 2008 02:26 PM |
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Posted By Kowboy on 08/25/2008 2:04 PM Wags:
I appreciate your efforts to show the Dems for the government gluttons they are, but how can you consistently overlook the guys who consistently out-do them?:
"In the first three years of the Bush administration, government spending has climbed -- in real, inflation-adjusted terms -- by a staggering 15.6 percent. That far outstrips the budget growth in Clinton's first three years, when real spending climbed just 3.5 percent. Under the first President Bush, the comparable figure was 8.3 percent; under Ronald Reagan, 6.8 percent, and under Jimmy Carter, 13.3 percent. No, that's not a mistake: Bush is a bigger spender than Carter was."
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/07/23/ED9088.DTL
Joe
You left out the part where 4 giant commercial plans crashed into American building and killed over 2000 people. Those may be the facts but often times there are reasons for the increase. Every president will ultimately spend more because of inflation and a larger population. I do see your point though.
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Wags
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| 25 Aug 2008 02:45 PM |
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Joe, Im in NO way letting the Republicans off the hook your right, they were like drunkin....umm summin spending money . Its just at least they realise there is a curve, (remember the Laffater sp? Curve?) At zero tax rate the government takes in zero taxes. At 100% tax rate they take in zero taxes, there is a tipping point. As you raise taxes you take money out of the private sector, where investors put it to work expanding or opening new business and creating jobs. Take more money from those that have it to invest (the "rich") you kill job growth. Who does that hurt most?? The working class. What it really comes down to is, most of what the federal government does, they have no basis in law for doing it, nor should they. They do it to buy votes, thats the bottom line. An elite group that feel they "know better" how to spend your money than you do. And then you have Obama saying we need to be "fairer" in our tax policy. How the hell do you give taxs cuts to someone that pays no taxes ?? Heck a good portion already get rebates of taxes they never paid. At some point, and I feel were close, those paying taxes take their pitch forks to the streets and takes back the government that was stolen from them. Joe, the Dems ran two years ago on a platform to bring gas prices down, get the budget under control and where are we? Both are higher...there is no difference when it comes to spending. The Bush Tax cuts RAISED more revenue for the government. Now, when were in a down turn, the Dems want to INCREASE taxes and expand programs... programs we can't afford. All so they can buy votes and gain power.. |
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Lenny E
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| 26 Aug 2008 10:44 PM |
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You guys are idiots with your tax calculations.
1.) Big corps..with any contacts essentially z out the corp, they pay no tax.
2.) Any rich people left behind by number 1, hide assests offshore, in the Caymans, Anguilla, etc etc.
3.) You idiots are left to do you stupid calculations, which are incorrect..because..duh....the money you are calculating isnt there. BTW its you and me who pay tax for 1 and 2.
I have an idea..Like TJ (Thomas Jefferson) said.. GOd FOrbid the country be 50 years without a REVOULTION. Lets line everyone up with no calloussses on thier hands and shoot them. Id pass that test. I think most of you would.
Smiles,
Lenny |
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Chris
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| 26 Aug 2008 11:02 PM |
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Jefferson also went completely against his principles to increase the power of the President so that he could make the Louisana Purchase. |
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"There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order to things." - Niccolo Machiavelli |
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Lenny E
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| 26 Aug 2008 11:44 PM |
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Thanks Chris
for ducking my tax observations completely. I take it youre a republican. Im a reformed Druid, reformed because we dont practice human sacrifice anymore. Do you have any idea how hard it is to find a young sacrificial virgin in the US? Years ago, at stonehenge, it was easy. Hence the reformed part.
Anyway, how dare you bring up the LA purchase. This BS bush league president has done more to assail the consitution than any seated president in history. Im surprized we arent saying sieg heil.
Its an old observation, but a good one. FAcism wont sneak into the country like a THIEF in the night, it will walk down the middle of main street at high noon waving the American flag.
Sound familiar Chris? As for me, I dont give a freak anymore, I will observe the erosion of US rights from 1 third world country after another, lifitng a glass from time to time to the liberty that once was.
Regretfully,
Lenny
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Tom M
 Senior Member
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| 26 Aug 2008 11:56 PM |
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No, no, Lenny. Don;t hold back. Tell us how you really feel. 'cause if you keep it all bottled up, it won't do you any good, n'est ce pas? And Carter was far worse than Bush the younger. |
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| What, me worry? |
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Lenny E
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| 27 Aug 2008 12:07 AM |
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Tom,
you silver tounged devil..I was thinking you didnt like me anymore,
Bush is a Nazi, so is McCain. Obama is a wimp. Whats a voter to do?
Im thinking Thomas Jefferson was right..God forbid the country be 50 years without a revolution.
Im thinking Tom M for Prez, (you dont want me as prez, I have a bad temper....and am the last guy you want holding the football). Im thinking Andy for VP, in case you die.
As for me.....Im vying for high cheif of staFF..the most highest of all. Heh Heh.
Lenny |
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Chris
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| 27 Aug 2008 01:22 AM |
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Lenny you wound me. Lumping me in with the Republicans...I'm an equal-opportunity political assassin.
Actually I brought it up because as I was reading your post I was listening to the History Channel's series on The Presidents on TV, and they just happened to be discussing Thomas Jefferson and that particular issue.
As for Bush, I'll say it again, he's been getting blamed for way more than he's due, and history will eventually prove me right, just like history has since reevaluated John Adam's presidency as not so bad. Bush has done very little to do anything to erode anything, particularly to those of us who work in the technology fields that know just how unsecure your telephone conversations are...
He's actually done pretty well considering his lot. He managed to stave off economic depression for almost six years, knocked off one constant pain in our ass, got China to bitch out North Korea, and messed up some terrorists. And through it all he had a very vocal minority bitching about everything without offering solutions of their own because they were still pissed that Gore wasn't the President.
And more importantly, he's at least tried to do something. The only reason I even lean towards voting Republican is because the entire platform of the Democratic party for the last 7 years has been "whatever Bush does, we'll do the opposite." Even now, we have to listen that nonsense. "I'm not Bush" is not a position. "I'll do what Bush hasn't" is not a plan. Pelosi and her crew finally got control of Congress, and what did they do with it? Nothing. Nada. Nutz. Zip. Zero. Zilcho. Hell she won't even let people vote on issues. Everybody went on vacation instead.
In terms of finance, Bush isn't to blame for people not reading their mortgages. He isn't to blame for spending ridiculous amounts of money out of the Federal Government either, since that power is entirely under the Congress' purview. He can't use a dime without their say-so, but it's easier to put it on him for not vetoing the money they're spending because he's one guy and they're a whole bunch.
If anything, the main erosion of our liberties has come from the 24 hour media which has decided you can have your privacy so long as you never do anything they take an interest in. You're worried about the government tapping your calls overseas, but what about the guy from Channel 7 hiding in your bushes with a telephoto lens?
They've managed to quietly dumb down all our political interactions to one-liners, quotes out of context, and scandal while reducing any intellectual discussions to who won American Idol the night before. They single-handedly frakked up the 2000 election with their polling and their deciding who won before the voting even finished, much less got counted. They hung around Katrina "reporting" on how the "victims" who were too stupid to organize themselves to find and distribute resources were all being let down by the President because he didn't dip his wick in the water and part it like Moses and the Red Sea. They spend every day convincing every geek and nerd with a good idea that he/she is inferior to the jock taking steroids invented by geeks and nerds.
They are our check and balance against government and what do they report on? Britney Spears flashing a crowd. Anna Nicole ODing. An alligator that has wandered into somebody's backyard...in Gator Alley. |
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"There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order to things." - Niccolo Machiavelli |
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Lenny E
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| 27 Aug 2008 01:46 AM |
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Chris,
That was a long Winded post and I mistook it for an Al post. After careful reading, with no mention of Miles or radioactivity, I stand corrected. Son, are you actually trying to defend Bush from a historical perspective? Geeez man, I could post a long winded response, but let me be succinct…are you freaking crazy?
Do you know or appreciate anything about checks and balances, separation of powers? I know why your butts are worried. Bush created the perfect Nazi govt., and now your afraid Obama will assume that. How scary is that?
Quite frankly , I don’t give a crap about who wins, I WILL live overseas with the millionaires and duck this mess. Be careful what you ask for Chris, sometimes you get it.
Lenny |
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Lenny E
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| 27 Aug 2008 01:46 AM |
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Chris,
That guy Bush, got us into a war by lying, WMD is all the BS. . He is a liar, you, me and everyone know that. Whats worse, him and his lil dog Cheney sacrificied our boys, our sons, for oil futures. I dont know aBOUT YOU, but Im mad dog crazy angry about the deception. IMO hanging is too good for them.
Lenny |
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Curt H
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| 27 Aug 2008 07:11 AM |
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Some one needed to stop the Bush pep rally in this thread. Thanks Lenny! |
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Tom M
 Senior Member
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| 27 Aug 2008 08:09 AM |
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Lenny, If nominated, I will not run, if elected, I will not serve. Now excuse me, I have to go burn Atlanta. McCain will do a better job of restraining Vlad the Invader and understands the motive of the Theocratic nutjobs and the splodeydope accessories they use as weapons. Obama thinks that talking will work all by itself. He could be the next Neville Chamberlain, as far as I can see. |
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| What, me worry? |
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