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Vinagar on material
Last Post 27 Aug 2008 06:56 PM by Al Gerhart. 14 Replies.
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Andy
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24 Aug 2008 02:20 PM  
Does vinegar, if left to sit on granite, solid surface or quartz, cause any damage?  I understand vinegar will eat away hard water stains.  We have used this method on solid surface before, but only a few times.
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StoneGirl
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24 Aug 2008 07:13 PM  
With natural stone, the answer is: "It depends"

Any stone with calcium content will be damaged by any acid - marbles, limestones and travertines obviously fall in this category. Some others are more obscure - like the fake Black Absolute. If you are unsure, test a sample of the stone in question and build up your own library of results for reference.

Materials like Ubatuba, Black Impala, Blue Pearl - all stones that do not contain calcium (and there are very, very many of them sold as "granite") will have no problem. Hydrofluoric acid might mar them, but stuff as simple as vinegar, wine or acidy fruit juices will do no harm.
Adriana
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Karl Crooks
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25 Aug 2008 10:54 AM  
Posted By Andy on 08/24/2008 2:20 PM
Does vinegar, if left to sit on granite, solid surface or quartz, cause any damage?  I understand vinegar will eat away hard water stains.  We have used this method on solid surface before, but only a few times.


We have seen Vinegar left sitting over night on Solid Surface, Quartz and Resinated Granite cause damage to the counter top.
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SAI Gordon
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25 Aug 2008 11:00 AM  
We too have seen it slightly discolor and etch the finish on solid surface and quartz (if left for an extended period of time), and it will definately etch into the calciferous stones as mentioned.

The damage to the e-stone and SS can generally be finished out fairly easily. Damage to calcium containing stone is more involved.

Hope this helps! 
Gordo (a.k.a. The Fro Bro)
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Andy
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25 Aug 2008 11:34 AM  
Would an hour or so be too much on solid surface and quartz or are you talking overnight situatuions?
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Karl Crooks
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25 Aug 2008 11:38 AM  
Posted By Andy on 08/25/2008 11:34 AM
Would an hour or so be too much on solid surface and quartz or are you talking overnight situatuions?


Andy I dont think anyone would see any damage done in only an hour, it would have to set on the product for a loner time to be anything noticeable. Left over night its VERY noticeable !  
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Andy
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25 Aug 2008 11:39 AM  
I am going to test some material if I have the chance to see the difference.  Thanks for the help.
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25 Aug 2008 11:51 AM  

To give you just 1 exmaple of the ones we have seen.....

Customer put a bowl full of Vinagar on the counter, he then put and old shower head in the bowl causing the Vinagar to spill over the sides of the bowl. This was left over night, the next day he day a ring the size of the bowl that had discolored and etched the counter. Then they called us and we fixed it .

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Brian_Stone
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25 Aug 2008 12:37 PM  
Posted By Andy on 08/24/2008 2:20 PM
Does vinegar, if left to sit on granite, solid surface or quartz, cause any damage?  I understand vinegar will eat away hard water stains.  We have used this method on solid surface before, but only a few times.

Don't forget about the new concrete materials. They will etch very easily if any sort of acid is left on them. We have a customer right now that has a ton of rings on their concrete bar top from wine glasses being left on it. We've been doing some testing to see if they're better off etching the entire top to even out the look.
Al Gerhart
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25 Aug 2008 07:07 PM  

Okay, vinegar and countertop materials, including granite.  You are going to wish this wasn't brought up.  If you want the short version, skip down to the bottom.

Here is an email from a email based forum send by an internet friend of mine, a canadian that is a radiological expert, especially the measurement of same.

"From: Kai Kaletsch

Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 6:31 AM
To: al gerhart
Cc: Dan W McCarn
Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Radon Travel in Granite

Uranium is usually pretty mobile and either acids of bases will leach it.
Even if you just dig up the ore and leave it sitting outside, the oxygen and
water are enough to leach it and you will find a yellow crust on the bottom
of the rocks or a yellow stain leading to the floor drain after a few years."


And another friend, one with which I have had some interesting phone calls from, Dan McCarn, an Uranium Geologist.  Skim it, don't try too hard to understand everything.  Dan has a PhD. in geology and isn't afraid to educate you.

"Dear Group, Kai & Al:

Back to basics, and a little simplified, but what the heck!

Primary mineralized uranium is usually the reduced species uraninite, UO2,
also known as pitchblende.  When uraninite comes in contact with oxidizing
groundwater, the redox state changes rapidly from +4 to +6.  Normally,
oxidized uranyl species UO2 +2 reacts with groundwater to form the highly
soluble solid species UO2(OH)2 H2O (Schoepite) and then to form carbonate
anionic aqueous species e.g. UO2(CO3)2 -2 or UO2(CO3)3 -4 because of the
high abundance of bicarbonate (HCO3-) in oxidizing natural groundwater
conditions.  This includes the range of pH from about 6.2 – >10.  Below a pH
of 6.2 the neutral aqueous species, UO2(CO3)2 0 forms.  So, at a pH of 7,
the dominate form of aqueous uranyl species is UO2(CO3)2 -2.  When solution
mining, this species is concentrated in anion exchange resins (bumps Cl -1
off) and the pH is maintained close to 7 to optimize the bicarbonate
complexation of uranyl.

How much concentration? Up to several hundred mg/L U concentration depending
on the bicarbonate ion concentration.  Sometimes NaHCO3 is added to enhance
the groundwater's ability to complex uranium.  Because the kinetics are
quite good, the reaction goes pretty fast.

Note: rain water, equilibrated to atmospheric CO2 and O2 is easily able to
rapidly mobilize uraninite (UO2) forming quite a nice, mildly acid leaching
solution of pH = about 5.6.  As a geologist, this is quite exciting, and I
can only add, "Yippee".


Dan ii"

What Dan basically said was that he agreed with Kia, either an acid like vinegar or a A
alkaline liquid  like Tea or some alkaline water from the faucet will leach the uranium out of a granite countertop.


And a last quote from a personal email from Kai

"

" I would not say that. I would not use 0.25% U as a countertop. I would not take any special measures for normal granite (~10 ppm). If I did have to eat off a 0.25% Uranium countertop, I don't know if I would want my cleaner to leave the Uranium in the material, or remove it from the top surface. I would probably see if a sealer could be applied."

At the time, Kai was under the impression that granite sealer was a thick coating of some sort, not what is normally used with the top scrubed clean before it dries.


So in short, do not use vinegar of any sort, although if you understand what Dan was saying, was that a mildly acidic 5.6 solution will leach uranium easily, but vinegar is around 2.5 pH. 

The pH scale is logarithmic and as a result, each whole pH value below 7 is ten times more acidic than the next higher value, so vinegar at 2.5 is 1,000 times more acidic than normal rainwater at 5.6 pH.

So vinegar will leach a lot more uranium than normal water will, and as Dan said, rainwater "easily able to
rapidly mobilize uraninite ".  Indeed, most uranium ore beds were formed by rainwater leaching uranium compounds out of granite rock.

"The high toxicity of soluble compounds of uranium is largely manifest in irreversible kidney damage. Blood disorders have also been observed in uranium industry workers."

Toxicity of Uranium

"if it is so safe, why aren't they supporting the testing?"
revans1
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25 Aug 2008 07:16 PM  
Grape Koolaid spilled on granite causes the sperm count of every man within 150 yards to be cut in half.
Randy

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David G.
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25 Aug 2008 09:54 PM  
only to the man who spilled it and the 149 who lied about it. 
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StoneGirl
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26 Aug 2008 07:14 AM  
Albert,

Your next mission will be to get a law passed that will ban VINEGAR in NEW HAMPSHIRE. (They are the Granite State, after all)
MUWHAHAHAHAHA...muwahahaha...
!!!

Regards,
Marvin



PS: This thread will self-destruct in 5 seconds...

5.....4.....
Adriana
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26 Aug 2008 08:19 AM  
That was funny!
Mike G
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Al Gerhart
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27 Aug 2008 06:56 PM  

Don't you think it would be better to ban the high Uranium content granites?

Geez, those experts also said water and oxygen caused the leaching.  Best take a long drink and a deep breath.

"if it is so safe, why aren't they supporting the testing?"
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