I got an email from VIC industrial highlighting theFab King machine. Was this the machine that either Kevin or Fred was thinking of reviewing awhile ago?

Do any of you stone fabbers have thoughts on this? It seems like it would be a good alternative to a wizard or the similar machines.

Thoughts?

Tom,

Although Kowboy seeks that title, I always thought you were the FAB King! And as Mel Brooks stated in the "History of the World"

"Its good to be da King"

It looks like it would be solid but just like any piece of equipment it's going to come down to what a particular shop is going to need.

If I was starting up a shop today and didn't have the money to get a CNC router of some type I would look into something like this. Unfortunately since it's not CNC you still need to hand fab the templates that it's going to follow.

Brian,
That's kind of what I was hoping. We have a CNC for the solid surface and some laminate operations. It probably would not be hard to make templates to follow.

I'm not likely to get into heavy duty stone fabbing soon, if ever, but we have fabbed softer minerals and this looks ideal.

Lenny, I have played with some of those letters Fab King and have come up with too many improper phrases for this forum. I do thank you for your compliment.

I think you can get these used for a good price. Lots of fabricators got these first and then moved up to a CNC. Once you have a CNC you don't need this machine anymore.

Solid surface templates would work great on equipment that uses water.

Posted By Tom M on 14 Dec 2010 09:34 PM
Brian,
That's kind of what I was hoping. We have a CNC for the solid surface and some laminate operations. It probably would not be hard to make templates to follow.

I'm not likely to get into heavy duty stone fabbing soon, if ever, but we have fabbed softer minerals and this looks ideal.

Lenny, I have played with some of those letters Fab King and have come up with too many improper phrases for this forum. I do thank you for your compliment.

That is the way we started at my last employer. We cut solid surface or plywood templates on the solid surface CNC and then did the cutouts on a Wizard.

This is the first place I would look for machinery if I was getting into the business. SFA Classifieds. There was actually a 2006 Omag CNC listed yesterday for only $45k.

Brian, thanks for the info.
I am having constant discussions about whether to get into hard material fabrication. Stone keeps going cheaper and cheaper in my area and it seems like there isn't enough profit margins here to get into it.

At the same time I see so much money flowing to my quartz dealers every month it's hard to justify not getting into it when I have a hard enough time keeping the guys busy.

By the way, I got an email from a place called Source1 that has a 2006 Omag mill4x for sale for $30,000. Not sure if it comes with the saw head, but dang!

It really doesn't look that bad.

Chris, I see you have commented on that SFA thread about the OMG. Do you have experience with one?

Tom,

Before you make the plunge, talk with me first.  I will put you in touch with a friend of mine in the industry that did exactly what you are thinking about doing.

May have some real good insight before you spend the money.

Posted By Tom M on 15 Dec 2010 11:29 AM
Brian, thanks for the info.
I am having constant discussions about whether to get into hard material fabrication. Stone keeps going cheaper and cheaper in my area and it seems like there isn't enough profit margins here to get into it.

At the same time I see so much money flowing to my quartz dealers every month it's hard to justify not getting into it when I have a hard enough time keeping the guys busy.

Here's my long winded story:

Yes, the prices on entry level granite have dropped over the last couple years. I hate to blame things on the "economy" but I think that has played a large part of it. When people were scared about spending money a couple years ago the fabricators that didn't know what their true costs were dropped their prices to attract new jobs. They started getting jobs but were losing money on them. In turn, they went out of business but people started to think that the low price was the normal price that granite should be.

When those shops closed down, Fred the fabricator thought that he could do a better job himself so he started a 'fabrication shop' out of his garage with the tools that he stole from the previous business. He thought "Hey, I can buy this material for $8 a square foot and sell it for $29 a square foot. I'm making $21 a square foot. That's over a grand for a 50 square foot kitchen. I'm going to be loaded!!"

The trick is for the actual fabricators that are still in business to sell to the customer that they're the better company to work with. Know what you're good at. Are you digital? Talk about how accurate you are and how perfect everything turns out. Are you a manual shop? Talk about how you're a craftsman and that it's an art form.

Just don't get into the price dropping war because the guy that doesn't have insurance and fabs out of his garage is going to have a lower price than you no matter what. Also, the biggest thing to remember is that usually that advertised price is the starting price, not the final price.

Right on target Brian.

I sell in my installations. In my showroom people see the kind of installs they will get and the fact that I am the guy in their home - no employees other than one or 2 guys helping me carry tops into the house so no communication problems. I never play beat the quote game. The discount customers are the ones who will be a pita later for no good reason.


Tom, Should I tell Deni at ATZ to worry?   ES is nasty stuff to cut. I won't touch it anymore - too much stink and with the slab size there is an aweful high scrap ratio.

Brian, that's part of the problem. I will not and have never been the price based guy. I sell against that. I currently install my own tops and I figure I'm higher by 12 - 30% what the fabricators I buy from are. They are top notch companies, but when you are looking at short weeks for your staff and are giving real dollars to you hard surface fabrication shops, it drives me nuts.

You guys are far more the experts in stone than I, but I was thinking about how the granite market got commoditized so much quicker and so much more fierce than the solid surface market and I think a lot of it has to do with Home Center interference as well as the import of cheap Chinese rejects. The market seemed to get flooded at the same time that cheaper fabrication and Home Center interest rose. A Bad combination, to be sure.

You are correct about the new guys coming in with lower price, but let's face it, every segment of every trade shows the same thing. A new guy thinks he can only make a mark by being less expensive.

Dave,
No, he has no worries yet. Same goes with the East Windsor gu and the two or three Bloomfield guys.

I have a hard time thinking that I can make it for less than I am buying it for.


Andy, Mory is the guy I would be most likely to talk to, and I have picked his brain something fierce already.

Tom,

The east Windsor guy is in some trouble these days. He played the discount game but keeps selling reject slabs to do it and the bad rep from it is finally starting to hit him where it counts. I used to do repairs for him and refused to after his customers were mad at me plus he always wanted to re-negotiate my bill at paying time.

Your concerns are the whole reason I gave up fab. Not enough volume to justify the shop expense. I figure you need to install 3 tops a week minumum to cover the machines and tools - with labor on top you would need to do like 5 a week.

The newer guy in Bloomfield is a real threat. His shop does nice work but his business practice is off. I had him fab a few tops for me a while ago. He tried to steal a contractor from me to do business direct with him right in front of my face and his bills never calculated correctly - turned out he was charging me more than we negotiated for edge work. We won't do business anymore.

Tom,
Because you already have a CNC, I think the FabKing might be a let down after a short period. You already know the benefit of CNC technology on the Solid Surface side. That benefit is even better on the stone side. You put your pieces on and it will cut to size, profile,polish, cut out sink and polish, and core all your holes, and cut finish seams for you. Take it off, hand touch up where needed it's ready to go. This will be done in a fraction of the time it would take you to do it manually. We brought fabrication in house about a year and half, before that we were doing template and install. Our stone sales are up 60.4% in one year. Being digital is what got us there.
If you bring it in house then you won't be sending your guys home early. Is it profitable, Yes! I would never have brought fabrication in house if I had to do it manually. Manpower production is based on a lot of human variables. Machine production is consistent on the 1st or the 100th top.
There is a lot of used stone equipment out there some good and a lot not so good. That Omag Brian mentioned is a good deal. Chek it out.

Mike, when I would talk to Mory out west, he always put it in terms similar to what Dave just did - jobs per week to justify the machinery. At a full shop set up, there's no way I would sell enough jobs to do in a week what I would need to (in this economy). All of a sudden this Omag or similar CNC deals come out and it makes me wonder. I don't think financing would be bad, or even necessary, but I always went with new equipment and am a chicken on used. How do I know I am getting quality stuff?

I understand what you are saying with auto, versus manual fabrication in general, and I have a guy who is pretty talented in non- automated fabrication, which I would insist on anyway, as well as a good CNC guy, so I'm okay there, but if I go automated, how am I really keeping the guys busier? Isn't it more like hiring another guy?


Dave,
I have heard good things about another Bloomfield guy, named in a Bram Stoker novel, if you know what I mean. Any thoughts?

Also I noticed that the East Windsor guy used to have a showroom in my town, and that showroom is gone now.

At the end of the day, you need the volume to pay for the machinery. It's like paying up front or giving an employee a commitment for two or three years.

Do you think you could sell enough to justify the purchase of equipment? Do you have the room to do water fabrication?

Posted By Tom M on 15 Dec 2010 06:18 PM
Mike, when I would talk to Mory out west, he always put it in terms similar to what Dave just did - jobs per week to justify the machinery. At a full shop set up, there's no way I would sell enough jobs to do in a week what I would need to (in this economy). All of a sudden this Omag or similar CNC deals come out and it makes me wonder. I don't think financing would be bad, or even necessary, but I always went with new equipment and am a chicken on used. How do I know I am getting quality stuff?

I understand what you are saying with auto, versus manual fabrication in general, and I have a guy who is pretty talented in non- automated fabrication, which I would insist on anyway, as well as a good CNC guy, so I'm okay there, but if I go automated, how am I really keeping the guys busier? Isn't it more like hiring another guy?

Tom,
How many stone jobs do you do in a week now? Do you aggressively push stone or just when the customer asks? If you don't, when you bring it in house you will. I'm like you on machinery, I like to buy new but I've had good luck with used as well. If you purchase a used stone machine, have someone who is knowledgable check it out. There are quite a few experts out there and they know thier stuff. The Omag had an offer for set up and training as an add on and I would recommend that no matter what machine you purchase. You can purchase set up and training from all of the main manufacturers.  The way you'll keep your guys busy is setting up and removing pieces from the machine, touch up and sink mounting prep, sealing, loading and installing. My guys are trained in Solid Surface, Laminate, and Stone/E-Stone. So if thier not doing one they are doing the other. The machine I have is NW Fabcenter, it is a CNC Saw, and a full Stone CNC in one. (ie no sawyer/ only a programmer)

Andy, I keep seeing less and less stone sales because I'm getting the crap kicked out of me price wise. We can create an area that can be a contained water zone, but I doubt I can afford the filtration yet. That's another thing that worries me. I don't know if we can get away with just using and draining the water or if I have to spend another 15- large to start with the filtration/reclamation.

Mike, I think you are right about our attitude towards stone. I prefer quartz, but I am not against stone, merely junk slabs and fabbers that cheapen the whole market. It is a common problem I hear from all you hard surface guys here on the FabNet.

Also, I pay my guys real wages. The highest in the area, really, and that makes it harder to compete.

I am encouraged by your words.

You can't get away with draining the water. You might be able to if you filter it first but that kind of defeats the purpose. There are cheaper options for everything if you look around.

If you haven't yet I would strongly suggest spending the couple hundred dollars for an annual membership to the SFA. Get active on that forum and / or go to a workshop and talk to a couple people that are already in the business. There are a number of very sharp guys in that group that won't steer you wrong even if you're their main competition.