I like all the products to some degree. Livingstone is some high quality material hands down the best in the business so far. Not saying that Staron, HI-MACS and Corian aern't good products, but Livingstone is always flat.

When a product turns into a commodity and the manufacturers treat it as such, then it's fair game. Other companies are going to eat away at your marketshare.

Dupont had the market cornered, Avonite came along and they are still struggling trying to get a product to the masses. Looks like everyone is trying but only a few will succeed.

Not to mention Corian made tons of money on their product before and even after their patent expired.

Posted By John Christensen on 15 Nov 2010 03:59 PM
I just received a three sheet load of Livingstone.  I'm telling you, the sheets were dead flat from edge to edge.  Some of the other big boys (read, C) can't seem to deliver a flat sheet no matter how hard they try.  Maybe that is just it, they don't try.

Johnny C

John and Christensen and anyone else,

I am trying to get a feeling for warp out there in the current market. I read in the 2006 fab manual where the warp spec for (read C) was 3/64 of an inch. Is that still true?

I have guys saying they sometimes get 1/8 of an inch warp. Is this common?

Its not rocket science making a flat sheet.

I've seen 1/4" over 30"....   wanna see some pictures?

Lenny:
While I have not seen the 1/4" that Kelsey claims, I have definately seen 1/8".  My real gripe is with the DuPont sheets that will have a full 3/64" smile in the last 5" next to the edge.  It would be a bit more workable if it were 3/64" spread evenly from edge to edge.

Johnny C

Thanks for the feedback guys. You guys are awesome.

Kelsey, yes I would love to see pics. Please dont post them on here and PO someone, just email them to me when you have time. I know you are very busy, and this isn't a dire need.

Johnny C,

Warp is in the last 5 inches accross the width? Geez! That has to be a heartbreaker to fabricate. Do you cut it off and take the material loss, or do you cut that part into narrow strips to use for edge buildups (narrow strips would help minimize the warp somewhat). How do handle something like that? I am just curious.

Warp in the last 5 inches. I can fix that. I know what that problem is from. Been there and done that.

How is the warp in Hanwha, LG and especially Staron? I did a project for Staron back in 03- flew to Korea for a week to fix warp and they said it was much better. What do you guys think?

BTW, without getting into techno-speak, warp can come from various causes,but it is often a function of line speed. You can only run those lines so fast without getting warp. I suspect Livingstone doesnt have the sales volume yet, to force them to run faster than optimum operating parameters. But as they take market share, I predict they will get curvy too!

 

 

Posted By Lenny E on 16 Nov 2010 10:53 AM

Thanks for the feedback guys. You guys are awesome.

Kelsey, yes I would love to see pics. Please dont post them on here and PO someone, just email them to me when you have time. I know you are very busy, and this isn't a dire need.

Johnny C,

Warp is in the last 5 inches accross the width? Geez! That has to be a heartbreaker to fabricate. Do you cut it off and take the material loss, or do you cut that part into narrow strips to use for edge buildups (narrow strips would help minimize the warp somewhat). How do handle something like that? I am just curious.

Warp in the last 5 inches. I can fix that. I know what that problem is from. Been there and done that.

How is the warp in Hanwha, LG and especially Staron? I did a project for Staron back in 03- flew to Korea for a week to fix warp and they said it was much better. What do you guys think?

BTW, without getting into techno-speak, warp can come from various causes,but it is often a function of line speed. You can only run those lines so fast without getting warp. I suspect Livingstone doesnt have the sales volume yet, to force them to run faster than optimum operating parameters. But as they take market share, I predict they will get curvy too!

 

 

Splashes and edge rips.  Where it really becomes a problem is when you need to make an "L" counter and you want to seam two sheets perpendicular to each other.  Clamping, sanding and feathering.  that is how you deal with it.  A sheet that showed up with a 1/4" warp.  That would not come off the truck.

Johnny C

Thanks Johnny C,

1 more silly question. I can visualize how an L countertop with 2 warped sheets could literally ruin your day.

With the extra fab time for clamping, grinding, sanding, feathering etc.  compared to non warped sheets, how much extra time is it?

Lets say non warped sheets take X amount of time. What is the time for warped sheets? Is it 1.25 X? 1.5 X?

Lenny,
Taken in the context of an entire job, I would say that it is less than 10% longer.  It is not just the extra time entailed, it can also be material yield.  On an Island for instance that needs to be 58" wide.  One seam would normally be required.  With 5" being trimmed off of both sheets now you need to come up with an additional 18" piece to complete the 58" width.

Even though I have given you a 10% or less figure.  The actual cost is more difficult to quantify... And lets not forget the potential degradation of the quality of the finished product that may not be flat from the wall to the edge.

Johnny C

Thanks John for the input. It was very helpful.

Kelsey: My name is Robert Butts. I'm the owner and CEO USSW. I saw your post and it concerned me greatly. T If you could let me know how to reach you, I would like to discuss what was said to you and by whom. Thanks. Robert Butts

Posted By Robert Butts on 23 Nov 2010 10:42 PM
Kelsey: My name is Robert Butts. I'm the owner and CEO USSW. I saw your post and it concerned me greatly. T If you could let me know how to reach you, I would like to discuss what was said to you and by whom. Thanks. Robert Butts

Mr. Butts:

Welcome to the Fabnet. It's nice to see we get the attention of the poo-bah of Livingstone. Kelsey and I butt heads occasionally, but his work and customer service is beyond reproach. Put him on the list, please.

Joe

ive had no problem with livingstone. if i need something eddie kullman is right there to make sure it goes smooth.

Posted By Robert Butts on 23 Nov 2010 10:42 PM
Kelsey: My name is Robert Butts. I'm the owner and CEO USSW. I saw your post and it concerned me greatly. T If you could let me know how to reach you, I would like to discuss what was said to you and by whom. Thanks. Robert Butts

Mr Butts,   First, welcome to the Fabricator Network!

It's really no big deal if I buy your product or not. I had received your sample box back in the summer of '09 and not really knowing much about your product, just put it on the shelf. I really wanted to find out more about quality and service before I even offered it for sale.

In the fall of '09 I had a customer call about your product which  reminded me I still had your sample box.  I called several of my fabricator friends and inquired about your product quality, a few that uses quite a lot of your product.  After everyone gave you the thumbs up,  I inquired about ordering product and getting an extra box for a designer I work with.  That is when I got the rejection email....."We are well represented by fabricators in your area at this time"

Check your inbox on the private message, I just sent you my contact info.

Thanks again for reading!

KC

PS... Roland, yes I know Eddie, great guy. I met him when he was with LG. He got me to fabricate his sisters countertop for her.

Lenny, it would be a shame to see the Livingstone start to curl. Hope that doesn't happen.

Posted By John Christensen on 15 Nov 2010 03:59 PM
I just received a three sheet load of Livingstone.  I'm telling you, the sheets were dead flat from edge to edge.  Some of the other big boys (read, C) can't seem to deliver a flat sheet no matter how hard they try.  Maybe that is just it, they don't try.

Johnny C

Johnny C....   Isn't yours and many other post about the superior quality of Livingstone, really is an indication that they do spend lots of money on R&D.
If they didn't have the best techniques and equipment, how could their product be more  flat and consistant than their competitors?

Plus, I bet the actual manufacturing cost is minimal, compared to the cost they spend to ship, store, promote and warrant. If they do a better logistic job as they seem to, then could this be the cost savings we see?

For them to offer a similar version of what is offered by another manufacturer, is that any different that in the auto world, the floor covering world, lighting fixture market ect.