Joe, everyone who works with the HiMacs adhesives knows the problem he will have is keeping the adhesive in the hole since it is much thinner than normal. Things aren't how they used to be when you were fabricating new product, this recycled material is different.

You think making the defect larger will work better? Humm...

Posted By Kelsey Crisp on 29 Sep 2010 07:20 PM
Joe, everyone who works with the HiMacs adhesives knows the problem he will have is keeping the adhesive in the hole since it is much thinner than normal. Things aren't how they used to be when you were fabricating new product, this recycled material is different.

You think making the defect larger will work better? Humm...

Kelsey:

I don't know how many holes you've ever had to fill, but I've probably filled more than my share. The big ones are much easier and turn out much better than the small ones.

The HiMacs pictured had no business ever leaving the factory. It is defective and gives the entire solid surface industry a bad name. It shouldn't be repaired. It should be replaced, refabricated and reinstalled all at the expense of HiMacs. Fat chance.

Joe

Darren, I looked at some of my pieces of Eden scrap and reported to Lenny. Hopefully he will have an opinion.

I believe your pictures have been viewed by LG reps ....  I'll let you know when I find out more. 

A LG guy  did report they have had issues with pitting in the back of the Eden sheets.. so if a cut was made through one, there would be a hole. Your picture suggest the voids are in the middle of your sheets too.. is that what you have noticed?

Hi Guys,
Those sure are a lot of holes! I have to agree that should have never left the factory. But from looking at that, I can think of several causes.

Some of you have observed the particles get pulled out easily. I haven’t done any work for LG since 2002 or 2003,or maybe it was 2004  so I’m not that familiar with their current formulations. The only time Ive seen particles pull out easily when routing is when someone puts polyblend particles into an acrylic sheet, but I don’t think that’s it, .

From the picture it looks like air entrapment. Do you guys have any voids on the edge, or visible on a freshly cut edge when you cut the sheet? IF so that’s indicative of air entrapment.

Since generally the pitting is on the back, that fits well with air entrapment, since genrally the top as cast becomes the back of the sheet, and air tends to rise. But if its in the middle too, that an indication of one SERIOUS air entrapment problem.

Kelsey observed to me that the Recycle sheet is lighter than the regular sheets. Please follow my  logic on this. When you look at the sheets they are very heavily particulated. What I am going to suggest is that the recycle content is contained in (or is) the particles, so in order to get high recycle content and maximum LEEDs points, the patterns have to be designed with a large percentage of particulates.

However these particles have a lot of resin demand. They literallly suck up resin, and the mixture becomes very viscous and prone to entrapped air. It sounds like they encountered some air issues when formulating the sheet, so to lower the viscosity (which allows easier air removal), they removed some ATH in the background, so the entire sheet has less total ATH (ATH in background + ATH in particles), which fits in nicely with Kelseys observation of lighter weight, since ATH is about 2.4 times heavier than resin, a lower total ATH level reasults in reduced density, or a lighter product.

No one wants to remove ATH unless they have to for design reasons (like the Avonite,  Class 3), or because they cant effectively process the material at a higher ATH level. Resin is expensive, and ATH is cheaper,  so lower ATH filled products are always more expensive. Now because of UL concerns, you can only remove so much ATH, before the product becomes class 2 or 3.

Now they draw vacuum on this, but on a continuous line the vacuum isn’t as effective in removing air, like it would be in a molded product, because with a mold, you can just let it sit in the vacuum chamber for as long as you need to. On a continuous line its all tied to Line speed. If you running that line at 2 meters a minute or more, you don’t have that much residence time in the vacuum, attachment. Understand? Since time is money, manufacturers with continuous lines don’t like to run them slowly, because it negatively impacts the capacity.

Plus those heavily particulated patterns with large chunky particles are prone to get some air after vacuum from dispensing it onto the belt, if you dont process it with finesse, some tricks and knowledge. Its like throwing down concrete on a belt and expecting it not to entrap any air.

That’s my analysis of the situation. Sounds like they should have hired me before running those sheets, theres lots of ways to fix that!

Just to make things clear on this thread,

The topic started out as a LG Volcanics question with the color Tamboro. Volcanics is not a recycled product.

A picture was then shown of a problem with another one of LG's products, their new recycled products Eden Plus containing up to 41% recycled. That color was "Sugar Maple"

Kelsey,

Thanks so much for pointing that out, BTW you are so correct. But the Volcanics is pretty heavily particulated too. Everthying I said about the Eden, except for the lower ATH , and recycle content, would most likely apply to scary, airy, air filled Volcanics too! ( Lenny dances around the room) heh heh!

Hi Guys,

I want to give a special shout out to Darren and all the immaculate fabricators who posted about this! And I also want to give a special shout out to Mr Kelsey Crisp of KC Countertops (Did I get that right> I almost said KC World Domination Conglomerates?) Now kelsey and I being old and dear friends not only exchanged emails 3-4 times, Kelsey took it it upon himself to actually cut scrap material to answer my questions!

Therefore by the power invested in me by Pai Mei of the Dreaded  White Lotus Clan, I do hearby induct the immaculate Kelsey Crisp into the special and most secretive order of the Snake!

I also owe the emminent Mr Crisp a snake wine shot  with a beer backer!

Works for me.

Whatever the heck it meant.

Tom,

Whatever the heck it meant?  You cut me to the quick. That analysis was immaculate! And defensible by all the laws of Physics. What didnt you like about it? Im saying it was freaking AIR. I stand by my conclusiions until I actualy see and touch  the screwed up  sheets in question!

BTW how much Hi macs do you fab? Getting any distributor or factory pressure on this?

"Therefore by the power invested in me by Pai Mei of the Dreaded White Lotus Clan, I do hearby induct the immaculate Kelsey Crisp into the special and most secretive order of the Snake!"

I am abso-frickin-lutely positive that it is as clear as the proverbial bell to you my fine fisics factually fortified friend, but I am an idiot of the first order and understand language to a point only slightly past eighth grade level.

........................................................................

I fab some hi-macs, but I am not getting any of the stuff I wold relish debating the LG powers that be on this subject.

It was LG that led to our first meeting, when I had a post cure stress problems way back so many years ago. You pegged it quick enough for me to speak with the LG people that same afternoon with conviction, and won an admirer right off the bat.

The wonderful Mike from ISSFA introduced us after you were coming out of a seminar at a show.

Tom , buddy... help me out here... I read what Lenny said 4 times... should I be proud or run and hide??

Posted By Tom M on 01 Oct 2010 12:17 PM
"Therefore by the power invested in me by Pai Mei of the Dreaded White Lotus Clan, I do hearby induct the immaculate Kelsey Crisp into the special and most secretive order of the Snake!"

I am abso-frickin-lutely positive that it is as clear as the proverbial bell to you my fine fisics factually fortified friend, but I am an idiot of the first order and understand language to a point only slightly past eighth grade level.

........................................................................

I fab some hi-macs, but I am not getting any of the stuff I wold relish debating the LG powers that be on this subject.

It was LG that led to our first meeting, when I had a post cure stress problems way back so many years ago. You pegged it quick enough for me to speak with the LG people that same afternoon with conviction, and won an admirer right off the bat.

The wonderful Mike from ISSFA introduced us after you were coming out of a seminar at a show.

Hi Tom, 
fisics  factually fortified friend hahahahahaha,? You are freaking killing me! Im cracking up! Dude that was excellent!  hey now dont get angry, I was jusrt asking and obviouslY you are an old big tiger like me! hahahahahahaha!

Yes Tom weve met, and also I seen ya in the bar at several shows, and Im sure you bumped into me! Old Devils like you and I like to hang in the bar with an entourage!

I will say it again that IS freaking air! I will further say LG knows how to fix it, THEY ARE SMART  people but they dont waNT TO DO!

What do you think Tom?

I dont kiss any ones butt. I dont freaking have to! I just say the true! F those guys, They dont pay me, but if they did I could fix it!

,

F

I was pee-owed that I missed you at the FasbNet party in Orlando 4 years ago.

Air sounds like the obvious answer, but from the accelerated cure? from the shrinking of the recycled content at a different rate than the resin? This is why you make the big bucks.

Tom,

Dont be silly! Accelrated cure? Thats so easy to control theyd be freaking idiots if that was the issue, but who knows maybe some A hole MBA had line running like gangbusters! Now as far as the shrinking of the recycle, Id have to know exactly what the recycle material was made from. I suspect because its LG, they reject normal particle batches and then say hey, we can recycle this crap...its merely greenwashing, ming bai ma? All the BS!

Now you know why I make the big bucks.....Ive seen every bullcrap stunt these guys can pull! And then some!

Lenny:

Thanks for the technical analysis, it is interesting to read. I know little of that but I'm glad we agree those sheets should never have left the factory.

I just picture a stoner reading this thread and laughing his ass off. Thanks LG. Jerks. The stoners are already kicking our butts and you hand them a home run like this. Arrruuuugggghhhh.

Joe

KC,
Best to proudly run and hide.

You can't be too careful.

Gents,  this read was perfect for me to help get my mind over stimulated ming settled down after a 26 hr return travel home from New England.  I had a lot of air entrapment too after those long plane rides.

Nice to hear you are home. Was it a good trip?

Posted By Lenny E on 30 Sep 2010 09:52 PM

From the picture it looks like air entrapment. Do you guys have any voids on the edge, or visible on a freshly cut edge when you cut the sheet? IF so that’s indicative of air entrapment.

Since generally the pitting is on the back, that fits well with air entrapment, since genrally the top as cast becomes the back of the sheet, and air tends to rise. But if its in the middle too, that an indication of one SERIOUS air entrapment problem.

That’s my analysis of the situation. Sounds like they should have hired me before running those sheets, theres lots of ways to fix that!

Lenny,

As always I agree 100% with you, air entrapment.

Here is a photo of a sheet I got in March 2010 that was full of air, I was able to use the sheet because the holes where just here and there. I did send the photos to LG. I enhanced the photo so the holes showed up better.

Mr Dani,

Yes that is air entrapment! Ive  seen it all  around the world! If its in the back, its a problem but do-able fabrication wise. If its in the middle its worse, and if its on the show side its a horrendous situtation for the fabricator!

Now these manufacturers are smart, they can fix that! Maybe it was just a  bad moon rising day when they ran yours! Maybe another bad day when they ran Kelseys! Maybe another bad day when they ran Darrens!

When it rains it pours!