Kelsey,

I really enjoyed meeting you in the past. That previous post of yours made me laugh so hard I had to stop drinking my Lonestar beer lest it fly out of my nose! Thanks Guy, I needed that smile today!

Posted By Lenny E on 19 May 2010 09:08 PM
Joe,

Since you seem to be  a liberal arts major I find it kind of funny you say there is no scientific evidence that the seam expands more than the stone. I have to submit you are way out of your depth on this and have no idea of what you are posting.

No matter what the repair material (the seam) its organic. Most likely epoxy, or maybe methacrylic, or even polyester, or even phenolic. The organics will always expand more than than the inorganics (stone).

Politefab called it correctly, and you invoked science, which you know little about.

If you disagree post the coefficients of expansion for granite versus the seaming materials.  

Why should Eli and I do your homework for you? He has decades of stone experience, and you have been kicked off stone boards as a wannabe! Id trust Eli's  word on stone repairs over yours any day!

Have a nice day liberal arts boy!

Lenny:

Please read and comprehend the posts to which you are responding. Nowhere in my post did I make the claim that "there is no scientific evidence that the seam expands more than the stone" as you claim.

While I appreciate your expertise in the expansion of organics and inorganics, you did not address the issue of the post, which is whether or not the repair made with the adhesives used will last for more than a season.

I did not invoke science as you claim. I said "I would be very interested in any scientific substantiation of your contention that the glue will expand and contract 'way more dramatically' than the stone and will separate whether or not it is covered."
 
You have agreed with Eli that the adhesive will expand more than the stone, and certainly have the scientific credentials to make that claim, but you have made no predicitons as to whether or not that translates into a real world failure and have made no scientific claims either way.

When Eli makes a "way more dramatically" claim, he, not I, has the burden of establishing proof. I've asked no one to do my homework.

I will match my customer satisfaction rating against Eli, Karl, Gordon, or any other repairperson in the world. Customers are the ultimate arbiter of value and I'm confident I've brought value to this customer, as is he.

Liberally,

Joe


P.S.:

I'm not a liberal arts major any more; I need too many math classes. I'll probably get a "General Studies" degree. Who cares if you end up teaching English?

Hello All,
As a person who's been involved in structural adhesives for nearly 30 years, please allow me to humbly "chime in" on this topic.
It is true that nearly all organic adhesives (such as the one used in this repair) do indeed have greater coefficients of thermal expansion than granite, anecdotal evidence suggests that this factor alone will not necessarily cause failure due to freeze/thaw situations in a climate such as Michigan's. I say this because we have thousands of instances where our adhesives have been used in projects such as this throughout the world covering nearly 50 years--and not one documented instance of failure, to my knowledge, due to freeze/thaw adhesive failure. Not to say it can't happen, but just that we're not aware of it ever happening with our materials.
That being said--we must remember that not all adhesives are created equal. Another Forum member above gave a list of different adhesive chemistries--epoxy, polyester, urethane, acrylic, etc. True, these are all organic--but that's also like saying that oranges and pears and apples are all fruit--a true statement in itself, but just as we all know you should never compare "apples and oranges", we must be careful when lumping all organic adhesives into the same category.
The inherently different raw materials used between these different adhesive types, and more importantly the dramatically different curing mechanisms involved, make each of these adhesive types truly unique. For example: a polyester as everyone knows shrinks upon curing, and this characteristic, coupled with its relatively poor resistance to moisture and temperature extremes, makes it an unwise adhesive choice for outdoor use such as the current project. On the other hand, the tenacious adhesion strength of epoxies, along with their incredibly low shrinkage, and their outstanding resistance to moisture make this chemistry an ideal choice for a project like this.
One more thing to bear in mind. Just as there are "good and bad apples", there are differences in quality within the market choices for each of these chemistries. For example: I can find several polyesters on the open market that would perform better than some poor-quality epoxies! So be aware of the quality and reputation of the materials you use.
Bottom line: I predict this repair will last more than one season. The repair technique and workmanship seem to be high-quality. (I would suggest however that an epoxy would have been more suited to long-term performance than the acrylic that was used).

Thank you for allowing me to toss in my 2 cents!

Mike Beckmann
Bonstone Materials Corp.
800-425-2214
www.bonstone.com

Mike:

Thanks for taking the time to share your expertise. I'll use epoxy on the next one. We have all learned a bit more, and that's the beauty of boards like these.

Joe

Karl:

I would plunge cut the ends of the crack and remove the piece then remove the rusting rod which caused the failure. No repair will ever work until the rusting rod is removed. As I did in the previous thread, cut some material from the cut-off piece for filling the saw kerfs from the plunge cuts.

Adhere the piece back in place and fill the saw kerfs. If the repair lines are too visible, use an invicon kit or other light cure methods and a Dremel with a diamond tip to make "particulates" to cover the seam lines.

The success or failure of this repair depends upon the customer. If their fabricator is out of business, any repair is going to look much better than replacement cost. If the fabricator is willing to eat it, they'll be a lot fussier.

That's a very forgiving color of granite. Go for it.

Joe

Joe, thanks for the reply.

I was not asking how to do it, we have repaired this type of problem on Quartz and Stone many times.

This thread turned into a Repair VS Replace thread, so I wanted to get everyone's input to see if the would Repair or Replace the sink rail crack. 

Joe I take it that you would Repair it, Thanks !

Karl:

Of course you have performed repairs like this many times, however, many readers have not. I believe these readers are well-served by an explanation.

The decision to repair or replace can't really be made by the information in a  small picture. The circumstances of the customer have to be weighed, in addition to the technical problems the repair requires.

The approach of a customer with a warranty and a fabricator who is still in business ("Get your a$$ over here and fix this!") will be much different than that of a homeowner who just purchased this problem with their new house ("Fast! Cheap!").

If this sink section is not connected to the rest of the tops it would give the color match problems less weight. There are many variables.

Joe

it can be repaired but again would i stake my reputation on it NO!!!!!!!


i have done a lotg of repairs on poorly fabricated stone and in a way i have a holms on homes attitude about it. rip it out and do it rite..

what you are rely left with is what is the customer going to pay and is the price of the rep[air going to come close to the cost of replacement. the repair is obviously going to be cheaper but by how much and whats the finished result going to be. the best result on a repair of this kind is going to be merrily satisfactory at best. would i do the repair if that's what they wanted and that is all they were willing to do than yes if that's what they want than they should have someone qualified to do it rite do it.. i would protest the decision to repair.


my thought on this subject is some times technicians tackle projects like this on there own behalf and not in the customers best interest. it is seen as a challenge another notch on the belt so to say. step away from that for a moment. the stone industry is constantly fighting against hacks and sub par work. the last thing we need is another waive of people coming in behind the people that did it wrong saying i can repair it. and leaving behind patchy stone work. i get frustrated easy with this crap do it rite and that does not include a can of glue and a hand full of stone chips!!