I came across these words of deep wisdom today on my desktop. It's something I saved several years ago from an ISSFA (as then was) forum and given something derogatory I remember Bill Wolle saying about beltsanders at his shower cladding demonstration at The Show it could well be from his pen. It's still as true today as it was when originally written.

May Fab tips
« on: Aug 21^st, 2006, 4:02pm »  

This is "old" information, but as I still get this question and still see belt sanders out there, so here we go again!
 
To Belt Sand or Not to Belt Sand?
 
 
 
There has been a discussion on the ISSFA Fabricator bulletin board discussing the relative merits of belt sanders in the solid surface industry, particularly around their use for removing seam adhesive and leveling sheets of material at seams.  While I will grudgingly admit that there may be a few fabricators that can produce an acceptable seam and countertop using a belt sander, I believe they are in the minority.  My contention is that there are other tools available that produce the desired results faster and with less chance of disaster.  The perils of belt sanders in this application are many -
 
Belt sanders produce linear scratches which are very noticeable to consumers if not completely removed.  It takes considerable time to remove them completely.  
Most fabricators tend to use too abrasive a grit compounding this problem.  
Belt sanders generate heat which can cause the seam adhesive to "swell up" higher than the surrounding sheets.  It is then sanded off, and when cool, shrinks below the level of the sheets.  This shallow groove will collect dirt and cause the seam to "yellow" over time.  

Belt sanders generate heat which can "bleach" the pigment out of the seam adhesive.  I am not sure this is the true chemical issue here; I just know I have seen it happen.  The resulting seam is splotchy white.  
Belt sanders "eat" solid surface material.  I have seen many seams that were not visible to the eye but could be felt with the hand.  
Belt sanders are difficult to control and can tip very easily.  Those small divots are difficult to remove.

Let us address the 2 main reasons fabricators use belt sanders.
 
Belt sanders remove the puddle of cured seam adhesive fast.  Correct!  However, so does a router on skis, a seam-leveling router, a low angle block plane, the Festool Rotex sander or even a random orbital sander with a "stiff" pad.  
Belt sanders level the sheets if they have not been seamed together flat.  Correct!  Why not seam the sheets together flat in the first place and eliminate the need for the leveling step?  Several seam-clamping systems on the market do just that.  Most notable are the parallign™ and EZ-SEAM systems.
Belt sanders are indeed fast.  It is, however, the old story of the tortoise and the hare.  While you may start out faster, you will be "loading" so much extra work into the finishing of the countertop, other tools will catch up quickly.  There has also been a lot of conversation that it is difficult to find skilled labor in today's market.  If you can work with tools and processes which lessen the need for such skills, why not?  

Be very careful Patrick... you are treading on thin ice... our fearless leader Andy, has a shop full of beltsanders, rumor has it, he has a bedside lamp made out of one, and uses an old one for a door stop.....  just kiddin....

You addressed what I have said many times here.... if you need to use a belt sander... you didn't do something right....

Bah, you guys don't remember the days when solid surface sheets were regularly different thicknesses. A belt sander was the most reliable way to change that situation. I cannot ever recall popping a seam in 3/4" thick material (which is what we used in those days) using a belt sander.

In fact, I think the same is true with half inch.

That was in the dark ages we use these belt sanders now with 150 grit they are self levelling - blind fredie can use one no troubles.
 

I swore to myself I would stay out of this conversation.

Patrick, yes I wrote that article and I stand by what I wrote. I am not saying you can not use a belt sander.

WOW, how much is the Fesstool and deck attachment?

The article is half correct.

Beltsanders are designed to flatten material. Orbital sanders are designed to finish material.

Most people have a problem with beltsanders because they have not taken the time to learn how to use them with solid surface material.

First and foremost, don't buy the wimpy 3" wide ones. They are unstable.

I love the debate,

Andy

PS. I challenge anyone to a sanding test, including Billy Wolle. I challenged him once before...still waiting. Just kidding with you Bill.

Second, practice and your seams will look perfectly flat.

Sanding grit is sanding grit whether on and belt sander of orbital. If you don't completely sand out the lines, then you didn't sand enough. That is called half assing it.

I do use a beltsander as a lamp. The shaft stick out from the dust collector bag port.

Posted By Andy Graves on 14 Apr 2010 07:28 PM

I do use a beltsander as a lamp. The shaft stick out from the dust collector bag port.

OK...  check this out....  I'm sure Andy is in the crowd somewhere....  Don't mind the distraction from the coconut girl... keep looking for Andy.

http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/pow...ander.html


Maybe Bill W is the witchdoctor?? Looks like that guy dances in the rain on occasion!

Good call Jon.

Posted By Jon Olson on 15 Apr 2010 01:02 PM

I'm a member of the Bill Wolle fan club. but I don't think you can call yourself a fabricator until you master the belt sander. True if you make a seam correctly you shouldn't have to belt sand ,but there are many more uses for a belt sander on a SS job.

When you make the material all wavy and bumpy from the belt sander you can just call it art.

Posted By Brian Stone on 16 Apr 2010 11:57 AM

When you make the material all wavy and bumpy from the belt sander you can just call it art.

Beltsanders make material flat, orbital sanders with foam pads make things UN-FLAT.

Oh he8#,

1) I never said you can not use a belt sander. I have used one myself many times. Go back and read the article again. A belt sander does work, it is just that many people can and will mess it up. Why use a tool that can mess up?
2) Level the sheets? What about the Parallign?
3) Andy, are you saying you are an ace with a belt sander but can mess up with a random orbit? You are kidding right?
4) I was challenged 17 times while working in FL. Tied once by Tim Hoch (quality of seam sanding only, not speed), NEVER beaten. FYI, as Tim was the best in his shop with the belt sander, he took all of them out of the shop.

Okay, enough, I am out of this debate. Of course, you can use whatever tool you want. I can cut an outside curve in plywood with a circular saw. I guess I will throw away my jig saw!

Bill:

I like your article, but I have a few quibbles.

If a belt sander is generating heat, it's because someone is sanding with a 120 grit belt when they should be using a 60. Guys get yelled at for making too deep of scratches so their bosses restrict access to the belts that will actually cut. The guy can't cut with a 120, so he sits on it, generating heat and subsequent seam failure.

DuPont used to advocate block planing down seam squeeze-out. It can work if your plane is kept sharp, but if you're just knocking off the squeeze-out instead of cutting, you can pull the adhesive right out of the seam. Sanders don't pull squeeze-out out of seams.

Joe

Hmm, as I recall ISSFA advocating block planing seems, good point Joe.

Low angle block plane, sharp plane iron. If you are not going to use sharp tools, don't blame me.

Joe, a 60 grit belt? You are kidding right? What kind of chain is on your saw? That cuts faster than a gcircular saw!

FYI if you oversand seam adhesive it swells more than the sheet, gets sanded off and then shrinks down below the sheet when cooled.

I am officially out of this conversation. (This is a contest to see how often you can get me back right?)

Posted By William Wolle on 17 Apr 2010 09:02 AM

Low angle block plane, sharp plane iron. If you are not going to use sharp tools, don't blame me.

Joe, a 60 grit belt? You are kidding right? What kind of chain is on your saw? That cuts faster than a gcircular saw!

FYI if you oversand seam adhesive it swells more than the sheet, gets sanded off and then shrinks down below the sheet when cooled.

I am officially out of this conversation. (This is a contest to see how often you can get me back right?)

Bill:

Not so fast, young man. You can't just drop a belt sander bomb and run away like a girly-man. You made a good case, now stay and defend it.

No, I'm not kidding about the 60. Let's say for some reason you've got a solid surface seam that's high on one side. Very carefully and without tipping (yeah, this takes some skill, practice and experience) sand off the squeeze-out with a 60. Lay into the high side just until you see a scratch or two on the low side; there will be a bit of glue line left.  Switch grits and repeat. You will not heat up anything and you will be dead flat in no time.

I'd still final finish with a random orbital.

Joe

60?

60?!?

Wimps.

I have used 60 grit on seams thousands of times and it works perfect.

Bill, what do you do when you have to polish a seam?