Paul:

I know you go way back in CAD, I do not. As you may or may not know, I've resumed my college education and since I've signed up for an introductory CAD class and a math class, my previous 3.79 GPA is in serious danger this semester.

I would have sent this as a private message, but I've never been able to get the PM's on this board to work. Feel free to make your reply public and anyone else can pile on as they see fit.

If you would like to feel serious self-loathing, pass Algebra ll in high school then sign up for Math 1100 thirty-seven years later. I thought I was doing well when I got the homework that was supposed to take eight hours done in ten. The instructor said that particular homework should have taken three. I quickly dropped out of 1100 and down into Math 1050. I got a 65 on my last examination, but I'm kicking ass on the homework since then.

I fell behind so dramatically in the first weeks of CAD class that I signed up for a tutor. The tutor had problems with the assigned work and he's a sixty-five-year-old retired automotive drafting supervisor with forty years experience. For my first CAD examination, I was able to draw a 1" line. The next step required construction lines and offsets, neither which was covered in the practice preparation given to students. When I complained to the instructor that he tested on material without providing practice, he told me he covered it in class. Covered it in class? That's just the first time it bounces off my skull. Maybe they should coach football this way. Just show a video of tackling and hear a lecture on proper technique. I'm sure this is a winning formula. Not. The tutorial CD that came with my textbook, AutoCad2010-First Level Fundamentals, is narrated by a person who speaks English as a second language and is completely unedited. Lots of "ummmms". The book switches between CAD Classic and 2-D without informing the reader, which is dumbfounding to the inexperienced like me.

My question is, should I drop this class before I crash and burn? I've got another week or so to decide. I have a history of not quitting, even when quitting would have been the smart thing to do. If I quit, my GPA is safer, but my money and self-esteem are gone. If I stay and fight, I might lose both and my GPA, although I may squeek by and earn four credits. What say you?

Joe

This is what two months of CAD studies looks like when I do it. Notice the two red dimensional lines at the top of the drawing? Pretty cool huh?

Joe

Joe,

Initial thoughts after just reading this: I'd try to figure out how far down it will take your GPA if you happen to just squeak by. What is your goal for your GPA? Do you want to graduate cum laude (3.5-3.74 GPA) or magna cum-laude (3.75-3.99 GPA)? You're smart, and, with the right help, you could do much better than squeaking by. The drawing looks like a good start to me.

I'd ask your professor for their recommendation for a tutor who went through the same class last semester. There are good reasons that the tutor you hired with 40 years drafting experience had problems - the main one being the new user interface of the newer versions of AutoCAD. As in Microsoft Office, they can't just let something great alone and try to force the "ribbons" interface on people. From what I've read, that started in 2009 for AutoCAD. I use AutoCAD 2000i, because we have no need to  upgrade at this time. Some time, I'd like to download a trial of 2010, just to have some exposure to it in case we upgrade. The ribbons are supposed to intuitively pick the right tools to be at your fingertips, but rarely do (from what I've read about AutoCAD and what I've experienced with Office) and only confuse experienced users. We went from Microsoft Office XP to 2007 about a year ago, and I am still getting used to the changes. A drafting student who has used AutoCAD 2009 should be able to help you out in person. If you have any specific questions, I'll download the trial and see if I can help.

If you decide to quit this class and do it over again another semester, it's nothing to look down on yourself about. You could even use the textbook to prepare for the next class.

  Have a good one,
  Seth

P.S. For offset, you just enter o and how far you want to offset (like a sink cutout where you want to make the cutout an 1/8" smaller the whole way around than the opening - you offset .125). I use construction lines all the time, but erase them when I am done. Some people stick them on a different layer so they just don't print on the drawing. You can use the xline  or ray commands to draw different types of construction lines. This would be something like a sink centerline that you don't need to see the actual line on the drawing, but it helps you in the drawing process.

Seth:

Thanks, but I'm wondering if my problems aren't more related to general computer literacy.

A kid next to me in class was doing the drawing the instructor was having us watch as a tutorial on the screen in class. The instructor admonished the kid not to work, but to watch the tutorial. The kid obeyed briefly, then finished his practice during the tutorial! It's all I can do to stay awake during the tutorials, let alone assimilate and draw!

Perhaps I'm just too old. I've heard cognative abilities fall sharply in middle age. Among other things.

Joe

Just remember that the F1 key is your friend. That's what opens the help file in most programs.

Hi Joe,

When I had my CAD company in the 90's we taught classes in Autocad, Versacad and Microstation. We never used tutorials and books. Of course, we encouraged students to acquire and read books that were readily available at the time. We used a hands on approach and kept the classes small, about 5 or 6 students per class. We typically would give instruction at the students work place and have them learn by drawing the types of things that they did everyday on the job. The students were usually highly motivated as they would ultimately not be employable if they couldn't learn to draw well on the computer. Cad packages today have a vast array of features and most things can be done several different ways making the learning process even more difficult. It's really not necessary to have a great deal of computer experience to accomplish the things you do in your daily drafting routine.

Unfortunately this type of training is quite expensive (We used to charge about 5K per student in the 90's) and is not usually available in a school environment today. It can be done of course as can be seen by the numbers of students graduating with some level of competency.  Our competitors at the time were Universities with CAD training in their engineering depts. They charged less but usually the teachers had no industrial CAD background and the students graduated with far less competency in their respective drafting disciplines. Learing to draw in a general way in a CAD package does not make you competent as an Arcitectural, Mechanical or Electrical drafter. You need to learn to draw for the field you will work in to be good at it. Most courses are not this specific.

Now to your current problem.  It will probably be tough to make good marks based on the maner in which the course is being taught. I'm sure you can get thru it with a passing grade with lots of hard work.  I don't think you tend to shy away from hard work. But, I think your grade average is also very important to you. Can you drop out and continue to audit the class without getting a grade? Continue to apply yourself and thus give yourself a solid foundation to do the course again with the object of getting better grades next time around. Is the course simply to give yourself satisfation or is it to make yourself employable in the increasingly automated countertop industry? The CAD skills required to draw for the countertop industry are minimal compared to other areas of drafting. If working in the industry is the ultimate goal then a course in CNC machining would complement the CAD training.

Don't know whether any of this helps much. If you want to talk some, give me a call.

Paul

Posted By Paul Bingham on 15 Mar 2010 08:56 PM
Hi Joe,

Now to your current problem.  It will probably be tough to make good marks based on the maner in which the course is being taught. I'm sure you can get thru it with a passing grade with lots of hard work.  I don't think you tend to shy away from hard work. But, I think your grade average is also very important to you. Can you drop out and continue to audit the class without getting a grade? Continue to apply yourself and thus give yourself a solid foundation to do the course again with the object of getting better grades next time around. Is the course simply to give yourself satisfation or is it to make yourself employable in the increasingly automated countertop industry? The CAD skills required to draw for the countertop industry are minimal compared to other areas of drafting. If working in the industry is the ultimate goal then a course in CNC machining would complement the CAD training.

Don't know whether any of this helps much. If you want to talk some, give me a call.

Paul

Paul:

Thanks. My GPA is important to me, but not as much as my self-esteem. I'd rather go down like Spinks (vs. Tyson) than not answering the next bell. I may get an "F", but it will be my "F" with dignity.

I actually mentioned dropping out and continuing to audit the class to the instructor today, in a moment of weakness. He hinted that some assignments and tests could be turned in after the end of class in certain circumstances. I think he sees a lot of twenty-something p*$$ies drop out when the going gets tough and is somehow feeling sorry for and simultaneously rooting for the relentless middle-aged guy.  

I am not going to be a dentist when I'm finished with school. Nor a Chiropractor or CAD drafter. I just thought I would take a class relevant to the industry in which I'll probably work until I retire.

You should develop an Super-Ultra Introductory Pre CAD instruction. Get all that crazy crap off the screen, it's confusing. Tell students how to do stuff one way only. After they've mastered that, let them play with the alternatives. Have an English major narrate the CD and edit it. There's gotta be a market, this class was full when I started and half have dropped at least.

Thanks again,

Joe

Joe, keep the classes up, at some point in the future this business will all be digital, I am trying to come to terms with it now, because I can do it gradually with my guys help. These young whippersnappers today are whizz with IT (and it is here now) its great to see what they can do in a flash. Try this :- http://www.cadtutor.net/tutorials/ Jeff

Jeff,
I am the novice of novices.  That tutorial site is great.  Added it to my favorites list.  Thanks!!!  And it's free

Johnny C

Jeff:

Thanks for the link, it's in my favorites too. The tutorials are a thousand times better than the one in my book and I can understand the instructor. You may have saved my butt.

 

Joe

This is what about four hours of CAD work looks like if I do it. Notice the "Layering" which is the drawing in black, the dimensions in green and the text in Magenta. I've learned construction lines, offsets and fillets; all essential for drawing this Corner Brace.

Based on the review with my instructor, I may be able to pull off a "D" or maybe even a "C" in this class.

Joe

Well, that's a heckuva lot better than the "F" you had saddled yourself with earlier.

Probably doesn't affect you and this class, Joe, but layering is a beautiful thing in CAD. If you separate by layers, when it comes to importing into toolpath software for a CNC router, the layers can become groups, which allows you a great range of freedom and control during a CNC process.

I might have an outline shape in all groups, so the CNC sees the boundary of my "top". Then I might have a series of cuts going all the way through the top - build up, sink and faucet holes, etc. - that's another layer. I might have a drainboard made on a third layer, and easily designate a sloping cut towards the sink. Another layer might be an inlay pattern, etc. This allows me to treat each different type and depth of cut as an easily accessed component in the overall job.

Posted By Tom M on 03 Apr 2010 11:39 AM
Well, that's a heckuva lot better than the "F" you had saddled yourself with earlier.

Probably doesn't affect you and this class, Joe, but layering is a beautiful thing in CAD. If you separate by layers, when it comes to importing into toolpath software for a CNC router, the layers can become groups, which allows you a great range of freedom and control during a CNC process.

I might have an outline shape in all groups, so the CNC sees the boundary of my "top". Then I might have a series of cuts going all the way through the top - build up, sink and faucet holes, etc. - that's another layer. I might have a drainboard made on a third layer, and easily designate a sloping cut towards the sink. Another layer might be an inlay pattern, etc. This allows me to treat each different type and depth of cut as an easily accessed component in the overall job.

Tom:

Thanks for the real-world explanation of practical uses of Layering. Magenta is so not me.

Joe

Way to go, Joe, and nice explanation of the benefits of using layers for CNC programming, Tom.

"Magenta is so not me"

That's funny on, like, two or three different layers.

Heh.

Thanks, Seth. It really does keep some things simple. I found I didn't need to worry about arranging a new start point as long as I kept the outline in there.

I loathe excuse-making and so I'm apprehensive in saying this, but my CAD troubles may not be all my fault.

I just spent 50 minutes with my CAD tutor and we could not get the Multiline function to scale properly. My lines were all too fat. Not only could I not do it with the tutor's help, the other tutor and the full-time CAD assistant couldn't do it either.

This is not some wierd obscure function. For the three of them, it should have been as simple as selecting the temperature in the car on the way to school. Without it, I was unable to draw a thing, so my behind assignment is even behinder.

For the second time, I will be writing to the Dean, my instructor's boss. I am not some live-at-home kid. I just cut the State of Michigan an income tax check for over a grand in addition to what we'd already paid. Mr. Dean is going to find out he works for me and the boss demands instructors capable of instructing me in the simplest of commands.

I'm already much calmer than when I got home, but I'll wait a little longer before that email goes out. I'll have Lynn Anne read it first, I promise.


Joe

Wow, Joe is going to be on the Dean's List,

Posted By Norm Walters on 06 Apr 2010 05:59 AM
Wow, Joe is going to be on the Dean's List,

Norm:

Actually, I've made the Dean's List every semester for which I was eligible since resuming my college career, with a 3.79 GPA.

My GPA is toast this semester, between remedial math and the CAD class.


Joe

I had a meeting with the college Dean and my instructor on Monday. We agreed that after I met with my instructor today and discussed my grades, I will decide to either take the exam and whatever grade I earn, or take an "Incomplete" and resume the class at night in the summer and take my grade from that class. But I can't have both; it's either/or.

I'm going for it. I've got about a "C" average and even if I get a "D" on the exam, I'll still pass the course. My GPA will suffer a bit, but it's worth it. Although the night class is taught by this hot chick with an eastern European accent. Their voices are lower than Ameircan women's you know....

 

Joe

"Zhozev, on hot night likea dees onez, vee shud be remoovink layers, no?
Mazhenta iss so yoo.."