I'm in a bit of a war with my boss. I'm asking for a rase for my employes and myself. I run a shop that manufactures molded solidsurface for handwashing stations. Befor this job I was head of a Solidsurface shop that made costom countertops. I made good money fabricating, but I cant help but think that me and my employes are gatting shafted at my new shop. So if anyone can shed some light on what would be a fair wage that woul be a graet help.

thanks for the reply. my situation is not one of rebelion or greed, its simply a matter of getting whats fair for my employes and myself. I'm fortunit that I work for company that has not taken a big hit due to our economy. My shop was formaly based out of Malta, then moved to the US due to the fact that most of our sales are in the US. It just makes sience to save money on the shipping. Sience taking over the shop production time has droped and quality has improvrd greatly. Like I said befor I just want whats fair.

wow... sounds like the chief doesn't know the indians are getting restless.

All I can say is, you better start just worrying about yourself, put the employees aside for now.  If you are the main guy there, keep up with how things are better, discuss these items with your boss. Do you meet with him weekly? If not, suggest a once a week meeting, on Thur afternoon, discuss the past week, and then the upcoming week.  Know what his expectations are, goals, ect.

If he gives you a number, then ask, so if we exceed those expectations, and increase the overall profit, do you think some of that added value can be put into incentive bonuses?

Employees come and go, but skilled leaders have a premium value. Never group yourself with the employees.

Hello Russell,

I am going to be completely honest with you. If you came to me and asked for a raise, you would not get one.

Wars with bosses typically only leads to one thing and it is not good for you. He may be looking for your replacement as we type. You won't win a war with the boss, that's why they call him the "BOSS". He will win whether it benefits him or not and you could be out of a job. Not a great time to be looking for work.

Even if you are the greatest fabricator in the world, your company could replace you in a heartbeat. U.S. is experiencing a 10% unemployment and that basically means you can be replaced easily. The economy is in the toilet and if you think you are scared, imagine how your boss feels. He is scared sh%$less, cause he can't get loans and has no idea what the future holds.

For now, I would be a model employee and when the unemployment rate goes down, I would approach the boss and ask him to consider a raise.

Don't worry about your fellow employees, they need to negotiate their own wages with owner, not you. This will only lead to bad things for you.

Remember it is not you and what you provide, it's the economy that is putting all employees behind the eight ball and things are not going to change anytime soon. Be thankful you have a full time job and hopefully benefits.

And last, never, ever go to your boss for a raise, unless you have a backup plan for a job. He may fire you on the spot. Be prepared.

Good Luck,

Andy

Posted By Andy on 22 Oct 2009 02:13 AM
Hello Russell,

And last, never, ever go to your boss for a raise, unless you have a backup plan for a job. He may fire you on the spot. Be prepared.

Good Luck,

Andy

gee Andy, am I glad I do not work for you!! 

I never had a problem with anyone asking me for more money. Sometimes that is a sign they have a problem at work, other times it means they really want to stay with me but has a better offer elsewhere.
To me it gives a reason to have a discussion about where this employee wants to be in the future.

I did have a guy once many years ago, come to me and ask  me for a $2/hr raise.  I asked him why, he said, well you drive a new truck and take vacations, I want to also.  I did tell that guy to take a hike so he could take the exact same path I took, college debt, business debt and 100's of hours no pay wondering where the next job was at. Greedy Bastard!

But, on the other hand, I had a younger guy come up and ask me for more money, he had been with me for over 2 years. I asked him why and he said, he would really like to marry his girlfriend, and buy a home and start taking college classes.  I respected that guy for that. I did take a chance on that guy, gave him a nice raise. He did marry, bought a house, took classes. Finaly after about 4 more years, he told me he was quitting me, going to college full time to finish his BS and get his masters. . I hated to lose him, but this guy did well for himself and family, plus he helped me make money!

I'm with Kelsey on this one. Go in with a plan that involves showing the improvements that have been made and the improvements that you're planning in the future.

If that doesn't work then you may be better off applying for a new job that will pay a fair wage. Just don't quit the job you have before the new one is lined up.

KC,

Many bosses don't like to be challenged. I have been asked about raises in the past and typically give them if it is a good employee. These times are a bit different.

The other thing that you need to consider here is the first sentence Russell typed. He said, "I'm in a bit of a war with his boss." This will not turn out well for him.

As far as being prepared, let's say Russeell just thinks he is a good employee but really isn't. His boss might want him gone after he asked for a raise.

I only want to give Russell the other side of the coin. He already knows what he thinks.

Hi Russel,
I glad this topic came up because it is something thats been on my mind here for a few weeks about pay and employees. Having been on both sides here, as an employee one usually feels they should be making more then what they are. As an owner of a company when it come to employees you want to be able to attract good quailty people that can help you succeed, to do this you need to pay a good fair wage for the work performed. Having said that there is a limit to what a job is worth to the owner of the company. The employee usually only looks at the cost of there pay and not all the other factors the owner looks at like the mortgage or rent, electricity, phones, insurances, equiptment purchases, material costs to name a few. As the owner you want your company to able to withstand the ups an downs of the economy. All of these factors and more are considered when the cost of labor is determined. I think most employees would be surprised that at the end of the month for most business's after all there expenses there really isnt all that much extra left. The proof of this has been unfolding all around us for the last year.

Just over this last year one of the drivers we have from one of our distributors was complaining that himself and some of the guys in the shop were not making enough money and that the owner just had to be making all kinds of money, after all they've been in business for over 40 years. Well I know the owner and he has told me it may be a matter of time before there all done because at the end of the month there just hasnt been enough money and its been that was for several months and there doing all they can do, but things just havent turned around for them.

Without knowing all the details of the company you work for, whoever had your position previos apparantly was not running is as efficiantly as you are and for that "good job".The person who held this position previous was being paid more then they were worth and they probably felt like they should have been paid more, so they didnt put in the effort therefore costing the company. In order to be profitable and stay in business your boss has determined what they can pay you and the other employees for wages, there the boss. Again there is a limit to what the pay scale for a job is and the person who signs your checks probably has a better idea of what your job is worth.

As many have posted already the economy has taken its toll on many and only the owner knows the true cost to the company. No matter what you think your worth it's like Andy said "Even if you are the greatest fabricator in the world, your company could replace you in a heartbeat". By the way you explained you were in a war with your boss and you were trying to get whats fair for you and the other's, you'll probably be the first to go.

Let us know how you make out.

Great point of view Steve! Well written!

Kelsey:

What on earth business is it of yours why an employee needs a raise? That is absolutely none of your business. I can see your asking why they deserve a raise, but that's about it. Which gets me to my next point:

Russell:

This age-old conundrum comes down to one thing and one thing only: what the market will bear. You can ask for a raise, you may get it you may not. You can bargain for a raise, but you can only bargain from a position of strength. In your case, I would think that may be securing a back-up job or considering self-employment.

If you go to your boss with no strength, you are essentially begging. If you have a "plan B" you can negotiate. I would rather negotiate than beg, if it were me.

With all this nicey-nicey talk aside, the bottom line decision for your boss becomes a trade off between the cost of paying you more or the cost and risks of finding, training and paying your replacement. He can take the tough-guy emotional approach and not want to be bullied by an employee although that may backfire if he finds out he will have to pay as much as you demanded to recruit your replacement. If you do negotiate successfully, your boss will have more, not less, respect for you.

Most importantly, this is business, nothing personal. This is the marketplace seeking equalibrium, no one is right or wrong. I've been on both sides too.

Joe

Posted By Kowboy on 25 Oct 2009 03:53 PM

Kelsey:

What on earth business is it of yours why an employee needs a raise? That is absolutely none of your business. I can see your asking why they deserve a raise, but that's about it. Which gets me to my next point:

 

. In your case, I would think that may be securing a back-up job or considering self-employment.

 

Joe, are you kiddin me?   If I ask an employee "why" it gives them the opportunity to either negotiate or beg, just as you said you would do.
The only other response I have is "then go and find a higher paying job".
Every employer already knows which employee they would even give the time of day to discuss wages. 

BTW Joe,  Since I hired my first guy years ago, anytime I ever had to lay anyone off, terminate because business had slowed, it was tough to sleep during those times, because I did care about the people who depended on me. So yes, at times it gets too damn personal

You are right Joe, any employee should have a plan B before they ask for a raise.

Kelsey:

My point is that your post made it seem that if you approved of the reasons why the employee needed more money, marriage and family as opposed to a new pick-up truck, you would grant the raise. What difference does it make to you what an employee does with his raise? He could stuff it in the garters of topless dancers for all an employer should care.

No matter the reason, as an employer, you are faced with the same challenge: Will the raise be more expensive than a replacement and ensuing risks? What the employee does with his raise has nothing to do with the answer to that question, making what he does with his raise none of your business.

 

Joe

Thanks for answering your own question Joe.  Why am I going to invest... and yes it is an investment, in an employee that stuffs all his money in the garters of topless dancers.

As you know Joe, that money would be better off in our hands to do the stuffing.. what in the world made you think of topless women Joe...  were you thinking of what to do for the next FabNet booth in Vegas??? GiddyUp!!

Actually, stuffing into garters is an efficient way of getting said cash back into circulation without the government skimming off another chunk.

Sound economical choice!

Posted By Kelsey Crisp on 26 Oct 2009 07:01 AM
Thanks for answering your own question Joe.  Why am I going to invest... and yes it is an investment, in an employee that stuffs all his money in the garters of topless dancers.

As you know Joe, that money would be better off in our hands to do the stuffing.. what in the world made you think of topless women Joe...  were you thinking of what to do for the next FabNet booth in Vegas??? GiddyUp!!

Kelsey:

Why are you going to invest in an employee that stuffs all his money in the garters of topless dancers? Because he may invite you to the club as his guest, silly boy.

To answer your other question, mowing the lawn makes me think of topless dancers, as does eating breakfast or studying for an economics exam.

It's nice to know that we can't specifically discuss wages here, but topless dancers, a subject critical to the success of any fabricator, remains copasetic.

That fabnet booth isn't a bad idea.....


Joe

Good topic.     When I had employees and they came for raises I explained the 4 "T"s  :

Time

Tools

Talent

(I added this one)  Towing the line

I asked the employee which of these they brought to the table.   Based on thier answer I could give a raise or not.    I used this in the past when I was an employee and wanted a raise.   I happen to be in a position that I held the cards not the boss,   When I quit I trained  2 guys to replace me, 1 to trim ,  1 to frame,  the boss asked that I don't compete against him,  I was that valuable.    Sometimes it works both ways bosses.  

Posted By David G. on 26 Oct 2009 08:42 AM

Good topic.     When I had employees and they came for raises I explained the 4 "T"s  :

Time

Tools

Talent

(I added this one)  Towing the line

I asked the employee which of these they brought to the table.   Based on thier answer I could give a raise or not.    I used this in the past when I was an employee and wanted a raise.   I happen to be in a position that I held the cards not the boss,   When I quit I trained  2 guys to replace me, 1 to trim ,  1 to frame,  the boss asked that I don't compete against him,  I was that valuable.    Sometimes it works both ways bosses.  

David:

Thanks for reminding me of another of the risks of not giving a valueable employee a deserved raise - you may give birth to your best competitor.

When I sold my business, I agreed to and honored a timed non-compete clause in the sales contract. But then, the buyer was giving me money. An employer giving me money, in the form of pay or severence pay, is the only reason I would agree to timed non-compete also.

Joe

Posted By Kowboy on 26 Oct 2009 04:57 PM

Posted By David G. on 26 Oct 2009 08:42 AM

Good topic.     When I had employees and they came for raises I explained the 4 "T"s  :

Time

Tools

Talent

(I added this one)  Towing the line

I asked the employee which of these they brought to the table.   Based on thier answer I could give a raise or not.    I used this in the past when I was an employee and wanted a raise.   I happen to be in a position that I held the cards not the boss,   When I quit I trained  2 guys to replace me, 1 to trim ,  1 to frame,  the boss asked that I don't compete against him,  I was that valuable.    Sometimes it works both ways bosses.  

David:

Thanks for reminding me of another of the risks of not giving a valueable employee a deserved raise - you may give birth to your best competitor.

When I sold my business, I agreed to and honored a timed non-compete clause in the sales contract. But then, the buyer was giving me money. An employer giving me money, in the form of pay or severence pay, is the only reason I would agree to timed non-compete also.

Joe

Joe, Thats what I did.... I worked for a guy that was a liar and a cheat.  Best motivation to start your own business!