A ten-year-old granite top has had a reinforcement rod failure. Moisture has penetrated into the cold steel reinforcement rod, causing rust which causes expansion, which causes the cracks seen here. The crack has jumped the seam visibly about 4" and another 7" which doesn't show in the picture. Of course the rod lies exactly above the cabinet rail, complicating access for removal and repair. The edge side of the crack is proud of the sink side by 1/32"; you can easily feel this one.



"Well, Mr. Smarty-pants-been-to-one-SFA-meeting-and-think-you-know-it-all, how are you sure it's a rusting rod?" Here is a picture of the seam at the center of the cooktop, looking up. The white stuff is what they filled the rod slot with, the blob interrupting the white is a gap at the seam and the squiggle to the right of the blob is cold steel exposed. It makes a tinging sound when you tap it with a chisel. If these guys hadn't screwed up their cabinet overhangs, I would never have gotten this picture.



This is to the right of the cooktop, again looking up. You can see and feel the shirnkage of the white filler in the rod slot.



Here is some nastiness near the faucet. The homeowner called it hard water marks. I might as well charge to polish this out while I'm there. This top needs a reseal too.

The homeowner called the original installers out. They said she must have done something, put some magic marker on the crack and left. 

I'm thinking I need to pull the faucet, sink, dishwasher and lower cabinet to get access to the failed sink rod for removal and repair. Any suggestions will be appreciated. No cosmetics please, permanent fixes only.

Joe

How large is the top? I'm assuming that it is pretty long if there is a seam in the middle of the sink like that. If I'm wrong though then it may be more economical to replace the top since Uba Tuba / Labrador Green isn't very expensive.

You're looking at a lot of hours to pull all of that stuff out. You may end up having to cut up the sink base cabinet if the water lines come up from the floor. Even then you're still going to have a cracked top, the only difference is that it's going to be filled in with glue.


...I just looked at the first picture again. Is there more than one seam in the front sink bridge or is the one that's there just off center?

Posted By Brian_Stone on 17 Aug 2009 08:15 AM
How large is the top? I'm assuming that it is pretty long if there is a seam in the middle of the sink like that. If I'm wrong though then it may be more economical to replace the top since Uba Tuba / Labrador Green isn't very expensive.

You're looking at a lot of hours to pull all of that stuff out. You may end up having to cut up the sink base cabinet if the water lines come up from the floor. Even then you're still going to have a cracked top, the only difference is that it's going to be filled in with glue.


...I just looked at the first picture again. Is there more than one seam in the front sink bridge or is the one that's there just off center?

Brian:

This "L" shaped top is about 32SF, has a sink and cooktop cut-out and about 15LF of 3" backsplash. In my area, getting the old top, sink and cooktop removed, the new top fabricated and installed, the appliances reconnected would run well over two thousand dollars. I'm hoping to get an acceptable repair for a day's work and charge them a little less than half that. ( I hope that was vague enough for the mods.)

The sink seam is off-center.

You're the second person to bring up the cost-effectiveness of this repair and I appreciate it. I will probably give them the replacement option.

Thanks,

Joe

Joe how wide is the front sink rail ??

Joe,
In our neck of the woods, seams in sinks are considered poor practice. If the seam was not there, there would probably not be a rodding failure. The seam allowed the water to get to the steel creating the failure. Is this common practice in your area?

Paul

How do you install the rod with the seam in place?

I have seen this repair where they actually cut the section out and put a new front piece in. Doesn't look the best but it worked.

Posted By Karl Crooks on 17 Aug 2009 09:29 AM

Joe how wide is the front sink rail ??

Karl:

I didn't measure it, but from my picture I can tell you it's about 3 1/2", give or take a quarter inch.

Joe

Posted By Paul Bingham on 17 Aug 2009 02:32 PM
Joe,
In our neck of the woods, seams in sinks are considered poor practice. If the seam was not there, there would probably not be a rodding failure. The seam allowed the water to get to the steel creating the failure. Is this common practice in your area?

Paul

Paul:

The fabricators were eliminating long deck seams in their layout. The only seams on this 72" x 120" "L"-shaped top are through the cut-outs in the sink and cooktop.

While I agree that the seam at the sink probably contributed, ten-year-old granite that was sealed nine years ago will absorb water, seam or not. If the rod had been stainless steel or fiberglas and properly bedded, it would not have failed. Has anyone figured out what the shrinking white stuff is in my pictures?

Fabricators debate seaming through cutouts all the time. I seamed a Zodiaq island through a sink to limit seam length a decade ago and have never heard a thing. There was no question it looked better and apparently no issues. It is common practice around this area.

Like seam placement, the entire practice of rodding remains debated in the stone world also. Some guys just don't do it and depend on the aluminum rails with the clamps to provide strength to compromised tops from the shop to the installation, apparently with great success.

Joe

Posted By Andy on 17 Aug 2009 04:26 PM
How do you install the rod with the seam in place?

Andy:

The fabricators of this job rodded in the shop up to the seam. The rod does not run through the cooktop seam anyway, hence the gap in the picture. Does this answer your question?

Joe

Posted By Andy on 17 Aug 2009 04:26 PM 

I have seen this repair where they actually cut the section out and put a new front piece in. Doesn't look the best but it worked.

Joe this is what I had in mind when I asked how wide the sink rail was, as you stated they have 3" splashes. Use the splash to replace the rail, repair the rest of the crack, repalce the splash with what works best. It's not the best look but may be the best way to go over all as you will not have to remove all of the added items that you talked about.

Besides with your new seaming tricks the seams should not even show

Got it. So the rod does not pass through the seam but up to it. Is there anything besides the frame of the cabinet keeping the stone level across the front of the sink?

Posted By Andy on 18 Aug 2009 12:44 AM
Got it. So the rod does not pass through the seam but up to it. Is there anything besides the frame of the cabinet keeping the stone level across the front of the sink?

Andy:

With the exception of the sink flange, no.

Joe

We also have had this to happen with jobs only 5 years old . we oly rodded a few then stopped . because we felt we did not need them. The steel gets moisture it in and spalls. everyone says u have to use stainless or fiberglass. however we dont use anything now. one job we totally replaced. one we just cut the sink rail out and replaced it with a filler we fabed.

Chris- What kind of glue and rodding material were you using when you did your rodding? IF you used a Polyester - I think that is why you had problems. IF you use Stainless Steel, and a good brand of flowing EPOXY (Chemical Concepts, Integra and Bonstone ALL have really great quality flowing types) you will not have any issues with spalling and deterioration of the integrity of a rooded piece. I've literally done thousands of tops using the Stainless/Flowing Epoxy "Technique" with ZERO problems..... kevin

Sound advice from Kevin.
Stainless rods and epoxy are a "bullet proof" solution.
MIA research indicates that rodding failures may occur when mild steel and polyester are used in conjunction within a wet area environment.

Jeff

Just to prove that I'm not afraid of criticism -- here is how I've done it and at the end you get to see why.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeGdeUg2fxQ

nssthan

The technique is good but dry cutting without a mask isn't going to lead to a long life.

I don't wear my seatbelt either  I don't know if it was a marble and granite urban legend, but when I was a kid we talked about an old timer that had died and when they did the autopsy they found 26 pounds of silica in his lungs.  Because of my motocross riding, horseback riding, steerwrestling life I spend a lot of time in the ER.  Silica shows up on XRays.  More than 20 years and I'm still clean.

That said.  You are right.  It is better to wear a mask

Its also better to wear a mask because if OSHA or your insurance company stops by - you will be hosed.

If you put that rodding blade in a small circular saw it will be easier to handle, cut straighter easier if you use the fence, and you will be sure not to grind the slot too deep.

Flowing poly is o.k. in a pinch but epoxy (a-b) is better to encapsulate your rod in - it will be more water resistant than poly which will avoid the whole ussue resulting in this thread. To save time you could use an a-b epoxy like touchstone experss flowing which will be machineable in about an hour or use the regular touchstone a-b just before you go home at night and it will be ready first thing in the morning.

Many rod failures I have seen result from exposing the rod while drilling the faucet holes with a core bit. It only takes a leaky faucet to rust the rod and pop goes the back rail at your sink.

We usaly see them in the front