Gene:

Great looking work as usual, however, Paperstone is not recommended by the manufacturer for exterior use:

“We recommend PaperStone for a wide variety of interior horizontal applications such as counters for kitchens, window sills and door thresholds.”

Of course, you're already out of warranty:

“This warranty is for PaperStone panels 3/4 inch thick and thicker used in countertops and for residential and commercial horizontal applications. It does not include uses of PaperStone in saunas, shower pans, steam rooms or outdoor uses in, by way of example only, grill tops, outside counters and boats.”

Fortunately, your top is somewhat sheltered by an awning and the dark color is more UV stable than the lighter ones, also according to the manufacturer.

Cash that check quickly,

Joe

Gene:

It seems Paperstone wants it both ways. They want thier product used as exterior siding and outdoor kitchens to expand thier market, then in the next breath they want to confine their product to interior horizontal applications to arm their lawyer when the exterior products develop problems. We just saw this with Kindred granite sinks, "scratch proof" vs. "scratch resistant". Which is it?


To answer your fair question, no, I've never fabricated Paperstone. I won't shy away if I get a call for it, but until I get very comfortable with it, I won't push any boundaries as you courageously have.

I like your point and it's true that fabricators often drag manufacturers into new and/or better uses for thier products. DuPont didn't invent seam adhesive or thermoforming, two of the greatest leaps in solid surface, those were the sweat and profit incentives of the guys who make money with this stuff.

I'm sure you were aware of the limitations of the use of Paperstone, however, there may be less experienced readers who, having read about your experience here, may push the boundaries of the product too far and get themselves into trouble. My information was offered as a technical curb to temper their enthusiasm.

If posters only get "attaboys" from readers here, it will quickly become boring, Jon and Sterling Surfaces excepted, of course. Posters should expect probing questions, constructive criticism and alternative points of view. They deserve no less and we all benifit from the exchange.


Keep 'em coming please,

Joe

Gene:

I sent the following email to Mr. Mark Knudtson, the technical rep for Paperstone:

Mr. Knudtson:

Mr. Gene McDonald, a Paperstone fabricator in Florida, and I are having a friendly exchange over the proper applications of Paperstone at the fabricatornetwork.com forum: http://www.thefabricatornetwork.com...spx#264669
Could you please read the thread and weigh in?

Thanks,

Joe Corlett
248-842-5693

Let's hear directly from Paperstone, 'eh?

Joe

Joe...thanx for writing friendly exchange...I was concerned you might not talk to me know more and critique my work..

Did you look at the link of the specification page off paperstones website?

didnt and shouldn't you ask him why it says exterior kitchens...did you see paperstone pauls post on " Other uses for paperstone" where he used it as a racecar head gasket?

it doesnt matter what this guy tells you...You are wrong...the website says exterior uses..

and here is the ultimate slam...that is the North side of the building...for Sustainable site placement..which means the Sun never evens sees those tops

man is there I post somewhere where you say "HMMMM I dont know enough or have experience with this material...maybe Gene is trailblazing through the fab manual...much like alot of people did with Corians FIRST manual

did you know In Martin  Funcks talk in Mass last year he showed us how he wrapped an exterior building in Solid Surface...should we call the warranty police on him...keep it up my brother I dont mind argueing with you...I just wish you would waste this energy on actually working with paperstone adn lets see what you are doing...I still love ya Joe...these typing quote cant show the sincerity and kindness I have But If this gets nasty and you start pouting and get upset let me know

Can ya answer me though why does it matter if the website I attched shows you its uses?

Posted By Norm Walters on 07 Jul 2009 06:47 PM
Speaking as friends to both Joe and Gene, and not a moderator, let me say this. Joe let's go back to where I originally met you, on the ISSFA forums. Let's talk ISSFA's founding for a minute.

Wasn't the whole idea of that organization to advance fabricators by not allowing manufacturer's to have their way with us?  It was "us against them", not "us against us", That part of the organization worked well, this forum is somewhat of a continuation of that, albeit a little less prohibitive as far as content.
 
That being said I'm not sure what purpose your jabs at Gene serve, other than being self-serving.  Is grabbing the limelight really that important to you  that you would risk friendships with fellow fabricators or just create unecessary animosity?

If the majority of folks posted on here with apparent lack of respect for each other, how popular do you think this forum would be, how many would even want to post on here.

If you were genuinely concerned about Gene's use of a product the respectful thing to do would have been to instant message him. Entertainment?, at what cost?

Posted By Gene McDonald on 08 Jul 2009 04:24 AM
Joe, joe, joe

Now I am getting a little dissappointed in you seriously..never to the point of pissed off..but dude...You answer Norms question, strike what he mentions..but my questions and points??????

The attchement of your first post seems to be not even read by you...so I will paste it....You did cross the line by telling me to cash the check quickly as if I rip poeple off...that was disrespectful..as If I tell customers something different..

Now I sent you the specification page from paperstone website and showed you the list on the lower right corner where it said exterior, outside kitchen, etc.

...I actually was waiting to hear you say...wow sorry gene...I didnt notice that page which is actually a SPECIFICATION page...not a key benefit page

Joe the warranty section is preety much like other...alot of SS dont warraty Commercial unless you a cool dude...the MFG's show what can be doen with the product...but the installation of wall clad and other use Corian might not warrant

because if the walls fall of because someone used caulk than silicone...Ppaerstone dont want to hear it...My chizeled edge on Avonite cant get warrantied...the whole edge is chipped!!!!

Then ya go and disrespect me again without merit..by replying to Norm..with you statement..some new fabricator might seee Genes work and not no the differences between Paperstone fab techniques....If a new fabricator would actually read your link...they will see that you actually dont post what you read,

Now here is what you posted off the same Paperstone site...but is a benefit page....and here the thing.Joe...WHEN was the last time you were wrong?

I personally know you are wrong alot...I am asking when you actually think you were wrong and at least admitted it....All you hafta say is I was wrong

The reason Norm mentioned Jabs at me is because I think there are people who dont want to show off their accomplishements, because they think you are gonna throw darts at them...not that they have done wrong, but they dont want to argue publicly...i also think what you does some good...I always say the artists who dont make it are the ones who listen to critics...but does it out weigh the bad?

this website has its own sense of welcoming...we dont lie...we encourage

But I realize I am not debating with you which i would have loved...You just arent referencing what I send back ...when I backed you into the corner with the truth...you said you were calling the paperstone police on me...when the guy is gonna tell you..that if you have experience with paperstone...you should learn about the stuff....now here is what You posted..and this is also for the newcomers which Joe now cares about

PaperStone Benefits and Key Points

• PaperStone is the 'greenest' architectural surface on the market today.
• Common applications include interior countertops, wall cladding, conference tables, signs, cutting boards, window sills, and toilet partitions.
• PaperStone is also an excellent choice for rainscreens

 

• Most PaperStone products are made from post-consumer waste, recycled paper and proprietary, petroleum-free, phenolic resins. Organic pigments assure superior UV resistance, color stability and even color distribution through the entire panel
• What did they just say Superior UV???????? Why would they need that?

 

• There are two series of recycled paper-based PaperStone products: 1) 'Original', which is made from 100% post-consumer recycled cardboard and 2) 'Certified',is made from 100% post-consumer standard office paper. It has been certified through the Smartwood program of the Rainforest Alliance to meet FSC standards. Paperstone made from virgin fiber is also available.
• Depending upon the project, the use of PaperStone may contribute to several LEED credits.

How best used:

• We recommend PaperStone for a wide variety of interior horizontal applications such as counters for kitchens, window sills and door thresholds. We also recommend these products for structural applications, landscape components, furniture, table tops and other manufactured products.
• JOE>>>WHAT  DID THEY JUST MENTION LANDSCAPE COMPONENTS???????
• PaperStone Certified and Original both also work well in vertical applications such as toilet partitions, interior and exterior paneling, exterior cabinet work, and chair rail.
• oh not again..EXTERIOR Paneling AND EXTERIOR cabinet work?
• Standard panel sizes are 60" x 144" in standard thicknesses of 3/4", 1" and 1-1/4". Other panel thicknesses and sizes can be special ordered. Contact your distributor for details. What is PaperStone made of and why is knowing this important?
• PaperStone is a composite made from recycled paper and proprietary, petroleum-free phenolic resins made from raw materials like cashew nut shell liquid.
• Phenolic resin and paper composites have long been known to have superior tensile, compression, impact and flexural strengths. They are very abrasion resistant. They absorb very little water. They are the products of choice in applications requiring high fire resistance (PaperStone has a Class A fire rating). They are routinely specified for cutting boards and for very demanding, high-use, exterior applications like skateboard ramps.
• OH man JOE this paper you asked me to check out is killing me...Skateboard ramps..high use, exterior applications?????
• PaperStone has a high modulus of elasticity.
• PaperStone is resistant to staining in kitchen applications.
• PaperStone can easily be worked with CNC-routers and lasers to produce signs and very intricately detailed architectural components. Layering different colored resin saturated sheets in the panel production process further expands the range of design options possible.
• PaperStone has been thoroughly tested and certified as non-detectable for formaldehyde by the most demanding test available, the so-called desiccant method test.
• Like all phenolic composites, PaperStone is subject to some color shifting with UV light exposure but, to the maximum extent possible, the coloring systems have been selected for color stability.
• ahHHH forget it....
• PaperStone is warm to the touch.

Mechanical properties

• 45,000 psi compressive strength
• An unloaded, 1" thick panel of PaperStone will cantilever 18" with less than 1/16th inch deflection.
• Mechanical attachments stay secure in tapped screw holes
• Router and laser detail limited only by workman's imagination
• Structurally rigid and sound in vertical and horizontal applications

Fabrication and Finish

• Millwork and cabinetmaker craftsmen can fabricate using traditional woodworking tools (e.g. triple-chip carbide blades).
• The laminated nature of the product creates an edge that resembles a solid surface product with a faint wood grain appearance.
• Unlimited edge detail with traditional tooling
• Seams carefully made with CA5 or two-part epoxy are tight and difficult to see.
• Shims provide height adjustment prior to final installation
• The panels should be finished with PaperStone finish or a similar product.
• Sanding using a Scotch-Brite™ maroon or green pad will provide a smooth finish that will also help preserve the surface integrity.
• PaperStone Original and Certified are made from recycled paper. There is a certain amount of surface appearance variability, similar to natural variability in stone.
• As with all natural and recycled products, PaperStone has inherent characteristics that may vary slightly from panel to panel. Just as a skilled woodworker looks at the color and grain of wood before matching up panels, it is important to do the same with PaperStone.
• UV stability is good in the dark colors. Some color shift will occur with the lighter colors. The PaperStone finish enhances the panel's UV protection.

Cost considerations

• PaperStone panel prices are roughly the same as quality granite and brand name solid surface or quartz material products.
• As a result of the ease of workmanship and finish of PaperStone, the installed prices are often lower.

NOW JOE...You see the reason Norm mentions jabs at me is because you have started this with the Hickory edge.toilet seat,and i see alot of others.. I pointed out the ice cream tops were on the North side of the building..The placement of the building was stronlgy researched for Sustainable Site location for points...so my freind...you are not argueing with me, you are argueing with your self...if you would have read what you posted you wouldn't have egg all your face...

The only jab you didnt take at my projects was the Avonite glowing edge molten lava thing other than chizeling it different...you asked me to do a press release about how this would help the industry and really showed me a cool side of Joe....but Joe...chizeling an edge is probaly gonna be difficult to do a warranty claim..not manual says finish the edge with a chizel and a mallet

thats enough now..I am sure you are calling the Avonite police on me too

Posted By Gene McDonald on 07 Jul 2009 09:36 AM

Joe...thanx for writing friendly exchange...I was concerned you might not talk to me know more and critique my work..

 

Did you look at the link of the specification page off paperstones website?

didnt and shouldn't you ask him why it says exterior kitchens...did you see paperstone pauls post on " Other uses for paperstone" where he used it as a racecar head gasket?

it doesnt matter what this guy tells you...You are wrong...the website says exterior uses..

and here is the ultimate slam...that is the North side of the building...for Sustainable site placement..which means the Sun never evens sees those tops

man is there I post somewhere where you say "HMMMM I dont know enough or have experience with this material...maybe Gene is trailblazing through the fab manual...much like alot of people did with Corians FIRST manual

did you know In Martin  Funcks talk in Mass last year he showed us how he wrapped an exterior building in Solid Surface...should we call the warranty police on him...keep it up my brother I dont mind argueing with you...I just wish you would waste this energy on actually working with paperstone adn lets see what you are doing...I still love ya Joe...these typing quote cant show the sincerity and kindness I have But If this gets nasty and you start pouting and get upset let me know

Can ya answer me though why does it matter if the website I attched shows you its uses?

Gene:

I meant no disrespect for my check cashing remark, wish I could untype it and hope you accept my apologies.

I watched Avonite representatives teach the chiseled edge technique inside a booth, saftey glasses and all, at a Surface Fabrication Expo many years ago. I doubt they could hammer you with a warranty void, but they may want it both ways too.

To answer your question, the last time I was substantially wrong was when I ordered  1 1/2 sheets of Pinnacle solid surface when I should have ordered 2 last week. I still ran short but I may have gotten out of it. I'll post pictures when Dani emails them to me. In fact, I've made posts about my mistakes previously, hoping to save others the experience. Since you know personally when I'm wrong "a lot" I would like you to be more specific, so I can learn too.

I am disappointed in your characterizing my attempts for information and clairification as "calling the Paperstone police". I would think you would welcome their vindication.

Joe