"about check out surface fab last year I was in the Mag every month and online"



Hello Jonathan . Welcome . So what do we look for you on Surface Fab? Not sure what you mean.

Posted By House66 on 08 May 2009 01:43 AM

Hi everyone,

Thanks for taking a look.  I am a former importer who is looking to fabricate.  I am green to say the least when it comes to fabrication.  Right now I have a place to do my fabrication.  I dont know how to get my name out so much.  My prices for my area are great since I have no overhead.  I would also like to start fabricating but I do not really know what I need.... Im really not this sad because I can sell like crazy.  I dont like most of my deals to go to fabrication.  Any ideas would be great!  I really know what I am talking about check out surface fab last year I was in the Mag every month and online...  Right now I am DKE Products Inc... but am changing the name to Countertop Kings...

Thanks

Jonathon Klotz
Owner
DKE Products and Countertop Kings
Carol Stream, IL
cell 616-217-7293

PLEASE HELP!!!!!!!!

Jonathon:

Welcome to the fabnet. If I may be blunt, you are the nightmare of existing fabricators. You say you have no overhead. Nonsense. Of course you do. If you have no acknowledgement of overhead, you can't know your costs. If you don't know your costs, you can't know how much to sell for and make a profit. Of course you can sell like crazy, with no knowledge of costs you can sell at any price until you go broke. Imagine trying to compete with someone on the road to bankruptcy.

I took your suggestion and a search of Surface Fabrication magazine revealed no Jonathon Klotz ever, let alone every month. The guys who "really know what (they) are talking about" never have to say it, the other guys just know.

If I may give you a bit of advice, I would suggest you become more comfortable with your deals that go to fabrication. With the exception of some very talented tradespeople who can do some high-end fabrication here and there, this industry is going to the ultra-sophisticated uber-productive fabricators with state-of-the-art machinery, production and personnel. The big guys are kicking out tops at mind-numbing speed and productivity and that's the only real money left in this game. If you can sustain a huge burn rate for several years, jump in the pool.

Good luck,

Joe

This may be a case similar to Avonite going direct. Just as most distributors not getting rich, neither are most fabricators. It's easy to look at the price, and the cost of the sheets and believe that the fabricator is making obscene profits, its just not true. As Joe said, everyone has costs. I would check out the best fabricator in your area and charge what they charge. You can't do a better job at less money without it catching up with you. I've seen this time and time again, in many different business's.. you just can't do it.

Good luck, but walk before you run. Sell on quality not on price, if your the lowest guy, it's just because you don't know what you don't know.

Wow, I wish I had no overhead. How do you work that out? Last time I checked equipment cost money and so did material. Although I hear that the power company is going to quit builling for electricity. Its FREE day in America. LOL

My advice, Spend a 100k or so on equipment so you have some overhead.

WHAT A JOKE

Jonathan..welcome..yeah i know the guys could get pretty ruff with a trstimony like that...but make a start...if ya wanna start choose a sample box you like..look online at all the SS materials ya wanna play with....then when you see one or two you like..contact the mfg and find out who your rep is...they will set you up for a certification class...passing this class doesnt mean you can fabricate...neither will watching an episode of Law and Order make you a Lawyer....it will show you what you need to get started...

If you work with material you dont like i feel you wont be passionate about it and your new found business will not be able to transmit into the pockets of potential customers...then make your first countertop for your showroom..with a sink in it...most customers will want a sink...so might as well start learning

then post the pictures of your work in progress and let us judge you...ther is nothing wrong with that...an artist that cant get past the critics never make it

we are here to help..sometimes the help is not what you wanna hear...but its still help..if you agree with 100% of help and suggestions you probaly wouldnt need to ask for help...

so get started...hava good time..and you apparently know what a good top should look like...so if it looks like crap..try again...also remember..your name is Countertop kings...that name can be destroyed or ridiculed in one bad application...so good luck and welcome to SS industry...start learning we need you

and also if you do not do good jobs on your first few countertops...hire BTP to help you out ...back to perfection...Newcomers learning CTs is good for the econmy guys ...lets not chase him away

Johnathon,  I am fairly new to this industry myself (4 yrs)  I have strongly relied on my vast carpentry and cabinet building skills to lead me in starting with power tool  skills and knowing the diff between good and and unacceptable quality.   I was lucky to have a person with 15 yrs exp. to guide me through basic fabrication techniques.   i acquired several diff brand manuals and looked them over .  You would find lots of differences between them all.   I learned to fab by the book with each brand,  some of my competitors choose to cut corners and bank on volume to get them through the occasional warranty repairs.   Living a such a small town,   I need to have an impeccable reputation so we sell service before product.    Low overhead?   I suppose it's all relative.   I had most of the tools and the space before we plunged into SS but you will find your tool needs will triple with exp.   I go through router bits like  a house full of women go through toilet paper,  routers too for that matter.

I took the Avonite class,  I would highly recomend it,  hone your routering and other power tool skills and take the course.   My opinion is  SS classes do not tech basic tool skills,  it eats up too much time  and most students already know anyway.    When you get good at this you will see it's the same amount of work to to crappy work as it is good work, mind the details and remember you are only as good as your last job.   Good luck

Posted By Gene McDonald on 10 May 2009 06:14 PM
Jonathan..welcome..yeah i know the guys could get pretty ruff with a trstimony like that...

so good luck and welcome to SS industry...start learning we need you

Newcomers learning CTs is good for the econmy guys ...lets not chase him away

Gene:

Let me tell you what "pretty rough" is . Pretty rough is submitting a very competitive bid to a general contractor and having him tell you you're too high. You gave him numbers that were the same you charged eight years ago and you got beat by a guy with twenty-seven years experience in the countertop business. Redoing my numbers was out of the question, I knew Mr. Twenty-Seven years was going broke and severl months later he did. I take no pleasure in my vindication, but when you don't know your costs of doing business, you're going to hear from me, experienced or newbie.

I agree that new blood is good for the industry. It nurtures innovation and keeps us old guys on our toes.

I encouraged Jonathon to jump in the pool and stand by that advice. When you ask for input on this board, especially after having demonstrated an industry-endangering naievete', don't be surprised if the advice you recieve isn't what you wanted to hear. Better for Jonothon's wife, kids and life savings that he is "chased away" from this industry by a post on a chatboard than by the heartless lions of the marketplace he is about to engage.

Joe

No overhead in the Chicago area? Are you squatting on someone else's property and using their tools?

HEHEHEHEHE...Joe..you also know you are bidding against lower bidders who are not new who purposely keep their quote low to get the job...its better than hemmoraging full blood flow...they are just keeping their employees for that next job that pays...newcomers win bids over you??? does the GC know what tops he or she is getting from mr 27 years...have you explained that twenty years experience in Mica Ct's doesnt mean squat in SS quartz..or the like?

I am sorry you get knocked down by low bidders...but if you and all your experience lose a bid due to price...I truly believe it will pay off for you later...if you lose a bid to a contractor that picks price per square foot and doesnt even consider performance, quality and experience...thats GC builds garbage buildings...you can tell him or her I said that...

reputable GC's will pay extra if you present your portfolio of the pictures I have seen you fabricate...and your repairs!!!! Man!!!!!!!!!!! they looked better than the Countertop before it cracked....show them off...I know if you are just a ticket in a fishbowl with price per square on it...then I could be wrong for suggesting amatuer competition

Joe...i also dont want you to think Im blowing smoke up your pants...but if you lose a bid to our new fabnet member the Countertop King...I will try not to snicker or giggle, however I will really be impressed that he can pick up the pace of quality in such a short time...

Joe..you are a trooper..I am sorry if I through a shot to the kidneys...I just like to cheer on the newcomers once i awhile...no heart feelings

Posted By Gene McDonald on 11 May 2009 05:27 PM

Joe...i also dont want you to think Im blowing smoke up your pants...but if you lose a bid to our new fabnet member the Countertop King...I will try not to snicker or giggle, however I will really be impressed that he can pick up the pace of quality in such a short time...

Joe..you are a trooper..I am sorry if I through a shot to the kidneys...I just like to cheer on the newcomers once i awhile...no heart feelings

gene, before you chant too hard for the newcomer, check out this site.  Seems he left out in his post that he is an established stone fabricator.


http://mobile.domesticsale.com/Classifieds/235139.html

The first place any fabricator would start in the Chicago area would be to become licensed (PDF about 10 down).

Joe

oops...thanx for the research post kelsey and Joe...once in awhile i start thinking i am sharing some good stuff and sounding all motivating to newcomers in the industry...and WAM...right in the kisser with a fact

dam...seems like i only open my mouth to switch feet...

Countertop King you got some splaining to do...are you are person who got banned from this site and switched servers and names and is just trying to get a jolly outta us or do ya really want help and advice?

other newcomers to the field...keep your head up and do the right thing...

No Jon...  It means as the big guys get beat up in the marketplace, the little guys like me will inherit the business out there.. LOL   Do you want to send an application and resume to me or Gene?  GiddyUp!

Will work for beer

Posted By Jon Olson on 12 May 2009 05:48 AM

So if I'm reading all of this correctly. Big shops are going op eat up the little guys? I hope not. That would dilute this industry to nothing more than  A big Box store life. We need the Mom + Pop's shops.

Jon:

You can have a custom made wood rocking chair for about $1,500.00. The chairmaker gets a grand of that if he's lucky, the gallery gets the remainder. That's the only way anybody's going to make money at chairmaking anymore. Grand Rapids, Michigan used to be the furniture capital of the world then the work moved to the Carolinas. The smug Carolinian's thought they had shown the supposed high-priced unionized Northern workforce something, then the Chinese taught them a lesson in low-cost production.

Why will the solid surface industry be any different? It is going to be more and more difficult for lower-tech and lower-productivity shops to compete with higher-tech and more productive shops, regardless of size.

Jon, I'm about as experienced and productive of a hands-on fabricator as you're going to find. I think it will soon be more profitable and productive for me to digitally template, sub out my fabrication and do my installs only. That day is probably here and I'm just in denial. It's just like the chairmakers.

Joe

Joe,  logistics, location, local preference and hometown advantage are just a few things to bank on.    I don't see the big guys hurtin people like us any time soon.   I for one can boast  a  much lower overhead than ALL of my competition.   These were things we considered before we plunged into  very established industry.

I have never been so busy in my entire career in the construction trades,  if it weren't for uncertain times ahead for AK i would expand.

Since we seem to have drifted off to a productivity tangent, I just got my copy of the Slippery Rock Gazette which has a great lead article about the RoboCut. I highly recommed this article if you want to see how stone is processed most efficiently.

RoboCut in action.


Joe

P.S.:

Jon, loan me 400 grand, 'nK?