Wags
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| 19 Mar 2008 02:30 PM |
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Does anyone have any experience with any of the "green" concrete products? Ice Stone, Vitraso (sp?) Urban Slabs etc? Thoughts ? |
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Tom M
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| 19 Mar 2008 03:16 PM |
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Gene, you're on. |
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But a Constitution of Government once changed from Freedom, can never be restored. Liberty, once lost, is lost forever.
John Adams, letter to Abigail Adams, July 17, 1775 |
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David Gerard
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| 19 Mar 2008 05:24 PM |
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I know the making of portland cement is not green |
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| insomnia crossed with dyslexia and atheist beliefs may lead one to lay awake all night wondering if there really is a "Dog" |
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Jon Olson
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| 19 Mar 2008 05:34 PM |
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At the show last month I learned "cement, the main ingredient, has a high green impact, but you can reduce the amount of cement by replacing it with fly ash." What is fly ash? its the waste left from burning coal. what happens to fly ash? They dump it into the ocean.
So by just using fly ash we could solve twp environment issues. Can man even direct his step?
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Gene McDonald
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| 19 Mar 2008 06:30 PM |
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Wags...EnviroGlas..doesnt hafta be sealed..Icestone and vetrazzo has to...Icestone has added certification for example Cradle to Cradle..you can read online about that or buy the book ...its not a dry read if you are into Green materials....But the ICESTONe plant in Brooklyn has all their I's dotted and T's crossed..Shipping will really sticker shock da customer...by the weight of the cement products
the LEED APs might whine about the 500 mile MFG point...but just tell them that point can get washed out by the other attributes of these materials....Enviroglas is In texas and vetrazzo in Cali fornia..so I dont know if shipping is an issue...
remind them also that FSC wood is also 500 miles away from most LEED projects as well.. Vetrazzo claims to be the superman of Countertops..you can put a hot pot on it..Icestone well is Stone thats sealed
EnviroGlas is cut shaped , polished with whoop ass pads and out da door...quick profit
just like we learned at the show about cement..you can just ask the local cement dude to cut it with more fly ash...i just dont like the idea of putting sidewalks on cabinets at this present time..but they say its great for counters ....but next week who knows I'll probaly call myself Concrete Gene...I just keep wanted to learn da Countertop industry |
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Wags
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| 19 Mar 2008 11:48 PM |
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IM in the process of being leed certified. We are looking at some of those products, If we do "take" them on , we will inventory slabs, which helps in the shipping part. What is EnviroGlas made from if it doesn't need sealing? I would assume any cement product would need to be sealed well. I know Ice Stone is 75% recycled glass so that cuts down on the amount of cement. The 500 mile is a disputed part of LEED, some interpret that as 500 miles from where the finished tops are made, some where the slab is made and some from where the material for the slab is made. One more item the "green movement" needs to iron out. Vetrazzo scares me because of their large glass particulate. I found it easy to crack the large chuncks and what was left was very sharp, as in cut yourself sharp. Espeically if putting a roundover on the edge. Bob Paradiso left CeaesarStone and went to work for them. Bob is a good person, with lots of iindustry background, much at Formica, where he was VP of sales, ran the SS division etc.
I agree about Ice Stone they seem to be the most "real " business in the green ive met. Several others may become real given time.
I don't see much difference between Vetrazzo and Ice Stone other than the size of the particulate. Am I missiong something? I don't think heat would be a problem with either of them, except possibly breaking down the sealant.
Have you worked with any of these products? Actually fabricated them?
Thanks for the Info. !! |
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Gene McDonald
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| 20 Mar 2008 12:26 AM |
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Wags..Only vetrazzo...I had to take the certification test where i cut it i thru in some extra techniques, then put profile edges on it ..hoping to get a job but the shipping would kill a clients budget..Trucking company makes more than everyone on the job I sell I'll be up North in a few months and Im going to The Icestone plant and also in Brooklyn they have one of the main Richlite distributors..just checking them out...i have alot of New York City contacts...see how Green is doing...
Thanx to Northstar tand Paperstone paul i been able to clip some costs in shipping ...IF everyone loves it though and thank god i offer multi surface..they usually dont get away..but most Green thusiasts dont mind the money they mind the transport
Anyway..im sure you can put a hot pot on Icestone and enviroglas, they just dont suggest it..anyway Enviroglas is using as they put it an agricultural based epoxy resin..we call it also a poly cementrix mix thats why no sealing..ive done enviroglas and like the company alot..the founder Tim Laly is pretty cool..they also make envirMODE which is from toilets and tubs...I get jokes about literally being a Crappy countertop
but i fabbed and Installed enviroglas in as the national USGBC awarded the greenest house in florida went LEED GOLD, that was just about a month ago and the mayor etc, dog and pony show, newspapers thats why my phone has been ringing constantly and selling all kinds of green tops and signs.. thats why Paperstone is hot item in my shop this week...and all these materials are new..I also did also the Stae of florida seal outta Avonite Crater recycled. for the Courthouse for press releases which is good for references.so its been helping...being as Im new in business and all. anyway as I get the jobs I will always share what i have learned here..
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David Gerard
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| 20 Mar 2008 12:28 AM |
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Our portland cement comes in bulk from a foreign country on a large ship to Anch. I have learned that some producers of portlant cement kiln dry by burning tires, I think it was even mentioned on "dirty jobs " once on a tire segment. Green yes , brown yes, any color of stain you want , big time staining, The terrazzo type of finish can be quite stunning though. I have seen staining from heat, the brown from old pans when hot and set on the counter will cause irreversible stains. Many are sealed with bees wax type stuff Cheng has the best sealers i hear. I think that industry has a way to go yet especially to be green. If a cheap and clean way to produce portland cement can be achieved then i would consider it green. Then there is the staining issue. I hate to be so negative on such a good idea but try to convince the customer I'm about to change out a top of concrete to SS |
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| insomnia crossed with dyslexia and atheist beliefs may lead one to lay awake all night wondering if there really is a "Dog" |
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Gene McDonald
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| 20 Mar 2008 12:28 AM |
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Wags..I also just noticed you state that you are in the process of being LEED Certified???? you or your shop or building??? |
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al
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| 20 Mar 2008 01:35 AM |
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Don't know a lot about the green stuff, but I do know a little about fly ash. Can be more radioactive than the cement it replaces in Gamma rays and has Radon. This site says it is okay to use, maybe, sorta, hopefully.
I'd say the jury is still out on the product. But if there is a risk, they should find something else to use. |
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| "if it is so safe, why aren't they supporting the testing?" |
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Wags
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| 20 Mar 2008 01:40 AM |
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LEED does not certify companies only indivuals. Im am "going" for LEED certification to make me aware of all that is part of leed, and to give me more credibilty that I know and understand what im speaking about. I take new products and materials with an open mind. They do certify buildings also... |
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Gene McDonald
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| 20 Mar 2008 01:40 AM |
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Al, they would be using the Fly ash as a cut to divert it from harmful disposal..once in the concrete it cannot get out...its like the mafia useta do with stinkin rats...they tro them in the concrete and you'll never know it..but the space the body of the rat took up takes up less space of protland cement...its just a safe way to get rid of that nasty fly ash |
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Gene McDonald
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| 20 Mar 2008 01:44 AM |
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Wags..picture me saying this to you in a cool voice, not sounding like I am on a podium of expertise..but LEED cannot certify anyone, neither can they certify a product..I know alot of vendors might be visiting us fabricators in the world saying have i got a LEED product for you..but there is no such thing..products can contribute to them..just a tip no disrespect intended |
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Wags
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Wags
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| 20 Mar 2008 02:04 AM |
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Gene your smart in joining the crowd on Green. I also agree that all that is "green" is not green. Since you mentioned Avonite, how can they get 40% recyled content, when LG and Corian say there is no way to go past 18%, which is what Avnoites was BEFORE they started marketing it so hard...ummm.. Im not a chemist, I have no idea which is correct, but, I bet the chemists at LG and DuPont are at least as smart as at Avonite. As I have said before, something must be done to honestly "certify" what is green and what isn't. I know one proposal was using a "spoked wheel" to show how green. Different spokes would represent different parts of the process. Materials, transportation, mfg etc.. you could be green in using recycled glass, but red in mfg efficency.. etc. There are no less than 63 "organizations" "Certifing" products as green. Some are owned by the companies they are ceritifing. As with any new industry, there are frauds. Over time this will work itself out, or the market will work it out.
Either way, green makes sense. We have more people using a limited amount of natural resources, in a limited amount of space. One day we will run out of petroleum, I wonder if the SS industry is looking at other sources for resins. Paperstone uses Cashew phenols rather than petroleum phenols. Its a start.
Thanks for the info. |
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Gene McDonald
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| 20 Mar 2008 02:23 AM |
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Wags.. the guys even at USGBC arent "CERTIFIED"..thats one of the first lessons you'll learn at the study or from the LEED2.2 NC manual...we as people can only be accredited..thats why they call them LEED AP..accredited professional
Avonites recycled content is 40% and its poly, its even filled with ATH which I hate..but its post consumer and you probaly know more than me about da MFG process but you can get more LEED points with recycled content higher than 20%
I know this when they make 100 sheets 80 or so are good the other twenty which would have been in the lanfill is ground up into the recycled collection..they can say the nougat color is but they dont they dont mfg buttons..
the best way to be truly green is to do nothing at all..but then all building would stop..so at least people are trying to make a little change
btw the LEED test is hard for fabricators..but Architects say its a breeze after reading one time...The couse was nine hours and its a study of perserverance...I truly believe I can pass right now but i dont just want a passing grade just get the LEED AP statement on my biz card
I have kept and documented all the gren calsses I have attended in the past two years, that also makes the LEED aps breathe easier knowing I know the language and the process, I'll be talking the actual test in probaly two more months
I will be doing a LEED HOmes thats shooting for Platinum soon, I did the tops in the Gold..do the platinum and I am sure it will give me some good work and education about the green industry... ccol chatting about green...but look out Wags once people find out your going Green they roll their eyes at ya...I dont know why they just do..talk to ya later |
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al
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| 20 Mar 2008 02:33 AM |
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Hey, can I borrow that popcorn smiley icon? Wags is about to blow... Certified blowing of course. |
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| "if it is so safe, why aren't they supporting the testing?" |
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Wags
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| 20 Mar 2008 04:14 AM |
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Gene your correct, I chose the wrong word, accredited not certified. Avonite is Post industrial, pre consumer material. Most comes from the plant in Kentucky, they ship it to New Mexico and grind it up (they didn't have grinding capibility in Kentucky) and add it to the poly line. I question the 40% because I had cozumel in stock, when it was 18%, the next day, they said its 40%.. What changed? I know LG can't get over 18% presently.. I have no clue whos correct, figures don't lie, but ... you know the rest.
They do use alot of the "bad" material for samples. Also they do make the multi colored particulate for the Nougat color, they didn't at first. In fact they have a line that makes the particulate and a grinding room where they grind it themselves. Making the "buttons" (which was not really buttons, but made by a button mfg), is pouring multiple layers of colors, then griding it. Yes all the poly has some ATH, the glass series very little. Nougat was not one of the recycled products, it may be now, im out of that loop.
your right, not everyone will want or use green products. The products were looking at may get some traction in residential, but most will go into the commercial market. Not sure how it is in other states, but Az has a law that all public buildings must be designed with LEED in mind, there is a market here. Agree with it or not, it is something that will not go away anytime soon.
On another note, you need to watch for Legislation from the ASID, concerning a title act or a practice act. If they haven't already they are comming to a town near you. This may effect your business, depending on what they go for. At least it would be a title act, can't call yourself Interior Designer...not an issue, we don't anyway. Or it can be a Practice Act. That has the potential of not allowing any plans to be stamped except by a liscensed Interior Designer, any plans that require a permit. This would effect your business in ways you may not be aware of. The NKBA is hosting a Town hall meeting next week on this issues. The legal counsel from national will be speaking, along with the Pres of the AIA here, also Pres of NARI and several others. Something else to keep an eye on.
Al, not sure what your problem is, but why do you feel the need to post in every thread on the forum, even if you have nothing to add. I'll say a prayer for ya Al, your a good guy. |
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al
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| 20 Mar 2008 04:19 AM |
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Sorry Wags, I thought you were going to start argueing. My bad... |
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| "if it is so safe, why aren't they supporting the testing?" |
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David Gerard
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| 20 Mar 2008 04:57 AM |
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What i would like to know if the people behind the green movement actualy walk the walk.
Is it the green attitude first and foremost or just $$ like eveything else. I consider the the whole green movment more than just products, its about down sizing, less is better, energy conservation ect . . |
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| insomnia crossed with dyslexia and atheist beliefs may lead one to lay awake all night wondering if there really is a "Dog" |
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