Stone girl,
So far, this is well written. I've known about the different types of stone labelled inaccurately as granite for awhile now, but thanks for trying to explain with a bit more science.

Your last paragraph say it all about almost any material that requires fabrication. So much of this is who is doing the job. I've long learned to be honest with customers about the bad as well as the good in any product they purchase. Doesn't make sense to lie. Save that for Washington DC.

So, how far do you go in informing the consumer? At some point, knowing that different customers handle knowledge differently, and some would be very happy knowing just enough to trust you, how do you tell when you've gone into overload?

Welcome to FabNet.

Tom Mather

Stonegirl,

Thanks.  That is very informative.  Is there a list of granite colors available that are better suited for a kitchen application?  Seems that if I could eliminate my customers from actually having to perform these tests, it would be a huge benefit.

Thanks for posting and welcome to the FabNet.

[QUOTE]Tom M wrote

So, how far do you go in informing the consumer? At some point, knowing that different customers handle knowledge differently, and some would be very happy knowing just enough to trust you, how do you tell when you've gone into overload?

[/QUOTE]

Hi Tom & Andy

Thank you for the welcome.

Clients obviously have to be approached on an individual basis.  When dealing with them, you get a pretty good feel about how much they'd want to know and how far you'd need to go to gain their trust.

The first - and IMO most important - attribute of a good fabricator (of any material) would be a high level of trust in his own knowledge and capabilities.  This comes through knowledge and experience, and forums like yours and http://www.stoneadvice.com/forum/ are key in providing great resources for both.  A fabricator that is sure of his product and capabilities will have a much easier time gaining the trust of any client.

How far do you go in your honesty with the client?  Be as honest as you can.  Explain to them how to test the stones they like and provide them with samples so they can see for themselves if the stone stains or etches. 

Do not, however, try to tell them a stone is of inferior quality if it is difficult to fabricate.  A good example of a stone that would be really difficult to fabricate, but that performs superbly in a kitchen, would be Marron Cohiba.  It is tough, dense, easy to care for and breathtakingly beautiful.  Due to it's large, flaky crystal structure, it could be a challenge to fabricate if you are not careful.  Will the challenges in fabrication make it a bad stone to have in your home?  Absolutely not.  If you take due care in fabbing and installation, the client is guaranteed to be satisfied. 

Can you get bad slabs of Marron Cohiba?  Sure you could.  Just as you can get bad slabs of pretty much any material, but here again your expertise as fabricator gets called on.  You must know how to recognize a good slab from a bad one.  If your client tags slabs at the warehouse and they get delivered to you in a poor condition, refuse to accept them.  I have done so many times.  Explain to the client why they were refused.  Offer to accompany them to the slab yard to pick a quality slab.  Just be calm and honest.  It really goes much further than bluster and BS. 

Another very important step for any fabricator would be to trust the slab suppliers they use.  This would mean having suppliers that are honest and able to supply materials of superb quality, assist in material knowledge and the ability to treat any clients you refer to them for slab selection with respect and candor. 

Education for the fabricator is, in my opinion, more important for the success of any stone shop than the education of the client.  If you have a well trained and knowledgeable fabricator, the education of the client will invariably follow, since all knowledge imparted to the client will be solid and reputable. 

In the age of virtually unlimited resources available to the average homeowner, customers come to you more informed than a lot of people will give them credit for.  This is why eing informed and honest is a good policy to have with any client.

[QUOTE]Andy wrote
Thanks.  That is very informative.  Is there a list of granite colors available that are better suited for a kitchen application?  Seems that if I could eliminate my customers from actually having to perform these tests, it would be a huge benefit.[/QUOTE]

Although having a handy dandy list would be great, it really is not very possible.  There are new stones coming on the market pretty much every week and for anybody to work with all of the stone in order to be able to compile such a list would be virtually impossible.

Working with stone long enough, and having access to experienced fabricators and thus a large knowledge base, will go a long way in helping you learn which stones are great, iffy and just not fit for a certain application.

A lot of clients focus mainly on the appearance of the material in question.  They are vaguely or not at all aware of the performance of the stone in question.  This is why experimenting and finding out for themselves is a very important tool.  Combined with your knowledge of the material, the tests will help to educate the client on what to expect from the materials they might put on their eventual short list.

Stonegirl,

Excellent posts.  I will refer to them often as I try to enlighten myself on the variables of stone.

Thanks,

Johnny C

Stonegirl,

Flaky is flaky and unless you are going to pour a coating to stabilize the flakes, a flaky material will make a flaky countertop.

One of the stone industry mantras is "trust your fabricator", yet a visit to any stone website will result in a long list of inaccurate info, even out right lies or  worse, ignorance.    I am sure you have read the threads where I "Fisk" a stone FAQ page.   How does this fact and the granite industries desire to be seen as honest co exist?

Were most stone sites making the claims that the MIA makes, this would be a non issue.  But all here know that is not the case.

And while there are instances of consumers getting help at stoneadvice.com, the majority of the times there is a customer compalint, you will see ten to fifteen stone fabricators doing their best to convince the homeowner that all is well.  How does this fact co exist with your recomendation of trusting the fabricator?

Stonegirl,

That is a nice peice.  However, were it complete, it would include the downsides of resining as well as the advantages.  For instance, you neglected to include fading and yellowing of some resined stones.   No, you can't hide behind the fact that some resins are less likely to be damaged by UV, that is called selling the maximum and can get you in trouble with the FTC.

You also left out the issues with edges sometimes not matching the resined top.   Sure you guys can use wood stain and some wax, but long term this is both deceptive and unethical.

They folks over at findstone.com also have a different say on whether or not it matters if your granite is really "granite".   How can you explain the descrepincies between their view and your own?

While on the subject of differing opinions, why do you not rodd all cut outs in granite, as the MIA recomeds.  You claim to be a reputable granite fabricator, yet you are on record of disregarding one of the few industry standards.  Others like Cristian insist on rodding  everything.  How can you claim quality standards when you admitting cutting  corners in this way?

Well done Stonegirl!

 

Al,
In any kind of review you have to make assumptions on the part of the reader. One of the assumptions when posting an article concerned with quality is that you assume your audience understands the "given". In this case, fairly proud fabricators who understand the role that quality plays with product,  should understand that crap product will give you crap results. I have no problem with assuming she is referring to good/great quality resins. If we wanted to explore resins further, she or someone else like Dave can chime in on the differences.

 Stonegirl,
The most fascinating thing about stone selling so far is the variety of sometimes conflicting info out there. I understand what you say about judging how much the consumer can handle on the fly. I agree with you. What I don't know is how much correcting needs to be done, considering different customers have heard different information. You can't blame them, it's not their fault, but you need to find out how much you have to walk back to get them on the right trail.

Any advice?

I'm sorry to be rude.
Kevin, and anyone else who has an opinion feel free.

I'm not going to pretend stone is my number one choice for countertop material, but you can't deny that it has a strong place in the premium market.  It's a good material, treated right, depending on the (species?) of stone, where the slab was quarried, how the top was finished, and etc., etc.

I need to make my potential customers understand that making decisions on which stone to buy needs to be a mostly technical process, but it seems that most people choose stone through more emotional eyes.

[QUOTE]Tom M wrote
but it seems that most people choose stone through more emotional eyes.[/QUOTE]

It is the stone fabricator's obligation to be unemotional about the choice of material and to educate the client regarding the attributes of the stone in question.

For instance:  The client LOVES Rainforest Brown marble and wants it for the kitchen.  As fabricator it is your responsibility to show the client why it is a bad choice and to explain why it would not be the ideal material for a heavily used area.  Suggest an alternative stone or design - use the marble as full backsplashes over a Cambrian Black Antique countertop, for instance.

Work with the client and guide them.  Not all stones are good for all areas and as a fabricator you should be aware of the pitfalls in order to guide the clients around them.

I will reply better later, but have to run off to work.  We have a  tricky install today

Adriana

Thanks for the reply.
Good luck on the tricky job.

[QUOTE]Tom M wrote
I'm sorry to be rude.
Kevin, and anyone else who has an opinion feel free.

I'm not going to pretend stone is my number one choice for countertop material, but you can't deny that it has a strong place in the premium market.  It's a good material, treated right, depending on the (species?) of stone, where the slab was quarried, how the top was finished, and etc., etc.

I need to make my potential customers understand that making decisions on which stone to buy needs to be a mostly technical process, but it seems that most people choose stone through more emotional eyes.[/QUOTE]

Tom I don't think you are being rude... I think most of my stone clients come from referals from other Happy Satisfied Stone Owners!

With that said when I get a person in that wants solid surface because of color or pattern then they get solid surface. I do admit that if they are really tight on money and want something for nothing I tell them to get laminate.

Some folks are sold on engineered stone and a lot of those folks get engineered stone.

One thing I don't do with natural stone is sell porous stone that is not up to MY standards for countertop use... they want cheap they don't get it from me. I'll sell them a good quality stone or I don't do it. I don't need any unhappy customers!

 

Kevin,
Do you find that a high proportion of the decision has:
A) been made before they come in, and
B) is based on emotional preferences?

Great thread. 

I understand relying on the fabricator for the quality of fabrication and installation but I question most fabricators knowledge of the long term performance of  every stone available.  Unless they have had problems with a certain stone, resulting in complaints from the homeowner, or difficulty during the fabrication/installation process,  my guess is that most fabricators assume all is well. 

In regards to the testing, do you encourage the homeowner to do those tests on a piece of the actual stone they selected or just on a random sample of that particular stone?  Will the test be fairly consistent on every peice of the same type of stone?

Linda

It is very dangerous for any fabricator to assume anything about natural stone.  I guess we (my company) are fortunate that we do get to check back on many of our clients and the stones behave as we have told our clients they would.   You have to know your materials.  This could be a daunting task with natural stone because there are so many variables - even within a specific material.

The more you work with the material, the better you will be able to judge a stone's capabilities.  The testing process?  We supply random samples to our clients, knowing that our suppliers will provide material that matches what we have in quality and performance.  If a client selects a material that we have not worked before, we try to get them samples from the suppliers and we do the tests ourselves as well.  You really, really have to know what you are selling in order to supply an all-round quality product and service.  When I advise on online forums, though, I recommend that the people test materials from their own selected slabs, because it is impossible to determine material quality and the capabilities of their fabricators via an online forum. 


A very important issue when you sell stone, is to be comfortable with the product.  Comfort with, and knowledge about any product from the side of the fabricator breeds trust with the client.  This is why stone fabricators need to embark on a pretty much non-stop self education process.  Read up on geology - it will give you a better understanding of where the material comes from, why it would look like it does and also to an extent, how it would perform.  Network with other fabricators to find out how they experienced suppliers, equipment and materials.  Experiment with your own tools and materials - with natural stone, the more you learn, the more you find out you still need to know

[QUOTE]Tom M wrote
Kevin,
Do you find that a high proportion of the decision has:
A) been made before they come in, and
B) is based on emotional preferences?[/QUOTE]

A) Engineered stone and Corian has marketed themselves well and those people seem to have their mind made up. Most natural stone shoppers that have their mind made up have either had it before or know someone that has had a good experience.

B) I think the emotional types are the "me too's" and have no clue what they are getting into so you must lead them to the right material choice or they will not be happy with what you push on them.

I like the folks that have their mind made up and know what they want. I don't think most are emotional based.

 

This is a good thread.

I was hoping you would of said there was a majic list. I am trying to learn how to handle the granite sells issues. All the ideas I see are great, but how do I go about helping a consumer make the correct choice in granites when I am selling it only and the slab yard that the fabricators I use is 2 hours away ?