We still use stick templates and then digitize them on a big digitizing board.  They are converted to DXF format and ready to work in a CAD program.

What are most people using for templating?  Wood stick, cardboard, photo, laser, proliner? 

I remember my Dad using a stick template made of luan door skin back in about 1985.  He showed the Corian training guy his template and the guy laughed asking why he didn't use cardboard.  My Dad said this was better and faster.  Corian guy told my Dad he would make it in the business cause he took too much time making templates.

I am not saying my Dad invented the stick template, but when did that become the standard?  Did you guys always use stick templates and if so when did you start using them?  Just curious.

Andy,

We received our LT-55 on Monday and started using it on jobs the next day. It's that easy! It helped that we went on a measure with Tom the week before when we we visited with him. It took about one hour to get reasonably comfortable with the unit. We have been templateing with cardboard and sticks and then using the LT-55. On return to the shop we compare the two and are quite satisfied that the Lt-55 is accurate. It's also obvious that it's faster. You can easily template without removing the old top and in several cases where the homeowner didn't remove everything from the counters we were still able to shoot a template by just moving a few items around. The homeowners also think the unit it quite cool!.


Paul

90% of the Jobs I measure and don't template. The others specially Stone Jobs with complicated angles and no splash get templated. I use a material called Templast and it is great. Rather expensive but convenient and I can score the stuff and fold it, take to the shop unfold and hot melt small strips and it will be rigid. The stuff is translucent so I can trace the cabinets and scribe overhang.

I think it comes in 28" or 30" width and 12' long sheets folded.

 

Andy,

We use the LT-55 as you know and we love it.  In the beginning I was not a fan but once someone with some knowledge showed me, I thought it was great.  Definitely a lot faster than stick or cardboard.  I can go to a condo and template around ten units and get out of there in under an hour.  My guy that templates our laminate tops still does it the old fashioned way and I can get back to the shop have lunch, and start the CAD work and begin running them before he gets in the parking lot.

John

Stick templates for me too Andy.  And since I am not a CNC shop They are good from start to finish.

In 2005 I spent a hundred bucks on the templast system while at expo in Vegas.  Only timie I used it was for dong my Son's counter tops in San Diego.  I flew down and measured the job.  Rolled it into a 36" tube and brought it home on the plane with me.  I didn't builds the tops for about a month.  This job was had coved splashes and a site seam.  Unfortunately I couldn't roll the tops into a tube and fly down for install.  I had to drive my cube van 1000 miles one way.  My wife and I arrived in San Diego about  3:30 p.m.  Son asked if we would like to get a bite to eat or install his tops first.  I knew that if I went to get a bite to eat I would want a cold one to go with it and that would be the end of installing that day.

Did the install first.  It went in perfectly.  Didn't have to touch any of the scribes.  Pulled the seam together and went to dinner by 6:00 p.m.  Then I had a couple of cold ones.

Next day we walked to the beach and had lunch.  Got in the Cube van for the 1000 mile drive home.  It's not that my Son didn't want to spend any time with us but it was early December and he had Charger tickets, and he did come home for Christmas.

Never even got tempted to use the Templast system again.  It was a pain in the butt.  I like using sticks!

Johnny C

It’s funny how this subject comes around ever so often. I do as Andy and Johnny, been doing it since 1989, same way. The big difference is when I get back to the shop. Now that we have a CNC we digitize the templates into a cad file. I have looked at systems for some time now that would eliminate the need for the stick templates, but I just can’t bring myself to change.

People are always saying that once you move away from the sticks you get use to it and maybe so, but I love the fact that I have a hard copy of the cabinets. They have never done me wrong, in fact they have caught many potential mistakes that would not have been caught if we just had a file in the computer. I don’t make many mistakes when I program, but there are days that I am being pulled in ten different directions and at the same time under pressure to get the next job programmed for my fabricators and may overlook the overhang on a finished end or forget to allow for a cove splash. If there is an issue my fabricators find it right away and can fix it before in compounds into a more serious problem.

When our jobs get to the job site they fit, my installers don’t need to fabricate in the field, glue and go and off to the next one.

 

Shane

Andy,

After using Photo-Top for about a year and a half, you couldn't pay me to go back to stick templates.  That is really all that needs to be said.  The benefits to digital templates have been well documented.  It will save you money in the long run period.  I also like the professional image that it projects regarding our company.  Talked to a contractor the other day and he was laughing about how some guy came to do their stone job and it took him 3 hours to template 135 sq feet of stone.  I told him there was no way it would take me more than 40 minutes with our system, counting set up and tear down and all the questions.  He is going to give us a try on his next job.  We sell this guy lots of cultured marble, but we don't get any of his kitchen work.

You should get a digital measuring system.  You will love it.

Matt

Anybody out there use photo templating and not have a CNC?

Just wondering.

Johnny C.

I have several customers that I have sold the LT-55 to that do not have CNC's they run everything to a plotter/template maker.

Andy,

You know my opinion on the Electronic templating, I think the article that Bill Wolle wrote in surfaces summed it up perfectly.

Thanks

We bought an LT55 last year. Overall, I’ve found it to be a highly accurate and reliable solution.  It can take as little as a couple minutes to digitize a top. With an easy learning curve and good support from Laser Products Industries, I am confident we made the right choice.  However, as everyone knows, a system is only as strong as it’s weakest point, and this system has a couple. Here’s an important one.

Most of our templates were perfect and fit like a glove, but then I started getting one here and there that would be wrong. Angles were off, and top depths would be off as much as an inch. It turned out that the tripod was the culprit. Watch the laser beam while raising and lowering with the tripod’s crank handle. You can see the beam oscillate left and right while feeling the inner gears mesh behind the crank handle.  If the beam doesn’t end up in the same vertical plane it started in it will throw upper wall measurements off from lower face frame measurements, yielding incorrect depths and angles especially on long sections.

At first I thought I simply had a bad tripod. They replaced the tripod twice and both replacements did the same thing. Laser Products Industries support said that you have to be careful how tight the knobs are on the center shaft. “Find a sweet spot” they said, and downplayed the issue. I’ve tried various settings and am usually able to keep the pivoting to a minimum. Still, it’s a weakness in the system that can bite you if you’re not aware of it. Templating an existing laminate top with splash in place presents the greatest chance for trouble since the vertical travel is so much.

Just like any tool, you have to learn how to use them and overcome limitations. If possible I try to keep all measurements at a single level in one plane by using the supplied targets. By doing this the LT55 will produce a perfect fit every single time, period.  I’m still glad we got this system and believe it’s the best value out there. I’d bet other systems have their own issues especially with their steep learning curves. And I’m sure that Dan at Laser Products Industries is fully aware of this and that they are working toward a better solution. When they do it will remove the one weakness I know of that keeps this product from truly being a “no brainer”.

Andy,

We have been using our LT55 on all of our jobs cut on the CNC since we stated to run it. Three of the jobs have been awkward jobs with full cove and very crooked walls. One was a 32 lineal foot "U" shape with 45 deg. corners and full cove and the walls varied all over the place. Some of the scribe strips went from 1/8 inch to 3/4 inch over 8 ft. With the file from the LT55 we cut everything including all the scribe strips. We installed it on Saturday and it fit like a glove. This job would have been hours scribing and fitting on site. We spent zero time fitting on site. We just put it in place and did the 4 seams.

In just a few jobs with the LT55 I have become a true believer. It works!

You do have to be carefull with the tension on the tripod raise lever. It's just something you become used to checking each time you set up for a job.

Paul

Owen, A good friend uses custom targets and always shoots from a single height. This seems right to me, but the problem I have with it is that the target needs to be level as well. Trusting a countertop to be level is spotty.

With a new cab installation, I agree with you. One height, where there is little or no change, is the best and easiest.

I wonder why they don't stress leveling the legs as much as the unit. If you don't, how can you expect it to be acurate at differnt heights.

Andy, I did stick templates for years. I think I convinced myself that it was the best way to do it. I struggled over the cost of the lt-55 for a long time. I thought ... man I can make a whole lot of stick templates for that amount of money. I finally broke down and bought the lt-55. I started using it the day after I got it. It is very easy to use.

 

I was talking to my granite guy this weekend and we were both kind of laughing about it. He felt the same way as I did. Now I cannot imagine going back to stick templates. I spoke with another guy out of nevada who called me just to see what I thought of the lt-55 and if I thought it was worth it for him to get it. All I can say is it was the best tool I have ever bought. I would give up my cnc before my lt-55. It has paid for itself over and over again.

I've done thousands of wood templates and hundreds of photo top.  I did the digital when I subcontracted templates and install from another company.  When I template I check everything with my 72" or 12' stabila level, and do a wood template, and take several pictures of the cabinets, floors, and appliances.  I keep the pics in case the customer trys claiming any damage due to install.  With the wood templates I know for sure the job is correct before it leaves the shop.  I don't have a CNC so I don't see the need to try it myself.

When I did the photo top for the other company I would have problems all the time.  To be fair, I wasn't the one doing the CAD work and I'm a perfectionist.  It actually often took me more time to do the phototop than a wood template.  By the time I leveled the first card, put on all the stickers, shot the pics, did a series of actual measurements and diagonals (to check the CAD) and instructions of radius and overhangs, and pull off the tape I could have done a wood template and been on my way.  The wood templates also shows homeowners what their new top will physically be like.  Many can't judge overhangs and designs from CAD drawings.  One more thing is with wood you know what will fit up stairs, in elevators, and thru doors an hallways.

I have never tried the LT-55 but have heard many good things.  I think I'll stick to my sticks for now.  It gives me comfort and peace of mind.

Mark, I have never used photo system but I have heard there is some work involved with the system. Now, when I used to make wood templates I still just templated the cabs and wrote v+12 for a 12" oh. Are you saying you add all your overhangs to your actual wood sticks?

Before we had a cnc we still loved the digital format. I have a vinyl plotter so I would just cut my templates on vinyl and then build tops to that.

Example, today I templated a commercial job. 4 desk tops wall to wall with post notch outs in all corners. Tops are roughly 155"x30. Aslo one kitchen top 96.5". Then I will have 8 corbills. Took me roughly 20 minutes to shoot the template and another 20-25 mins in auto cad to complete drawing. Now to the cnc I will have about 45 mins worth of work nesting it. If I cut them on vinyl that would take me about 25 minutes. So without the cnc I am done in about 1hour. I think that is about the same as what it would take with wood other than I was shooting points to a blank wall. This would be a pain for sticks as there would be nothing there for them to sit on. PLus my template fits in my pocket.

 

Just a thought.

Yea, I do full size templates.  I will actually cut the luan to 25.5 inches on my streibig as well as 4' strips, 8", 16", 18", 22.5".  I hot melt them together at the template and return them to the shop.  I know they are perfect and leave absolutly no room for error and no flexing.  I can lay them on the tops before the installers leave to verify everything is good.  I don't want my guys doing any cutting on the job site.  Don't get me wrong, I'll draw whatever I can for solid surface, but every stone job gets a full size template for every piece.  It helps with slab layout, veining, and the templates protect the pieces in the shop and on the A-frames.  I know it sounds crazy, but I have an excellent track record with completed installs and satisfied customers.  It may cost me more, and I do recycle the templates, but its working.

TOM, The cabinets don't really have to be level since the targets are tall enough to cover about an inch of height differential. But it takes a little time to set up all the targets even and straight with the face frames and place them so that you can aim everywhere you need to. Sounds like your friend must have run into the same problem. It's not that hard to work around, and doesn't have to be a big deal IF YOU KNOW ABOUT IT. But for such a great measuring system to have that one little glitch in the tripod.. Don't get me wrong, it's infinately better than luan and hot glue, or even the plastic pvc strips. But for such a great product to have such a stupid little defect and they don't even warn you about it. Surely they could fix it so that it would actually work flawlessly like the video portrays it too.

I just thought this forum would be the place to bring something like this up. You think about spending all that money and listen to all the marketers put a spin on their presentations while you try to read between the lines. And you know it's what they don't tell you thats important. I'd just want to know if I was trying to decide which one to buy (and I'd still buy the LT55!). Jeez, I'm looking at CNC's, Bridge Saws, Panel Saws.. Makes me nervous. So I like this forum and look for the real experiences everyone has had. That kind of info is invaluable.

[QUOTE]markm wrote

I've done thousands of wood templates and hundreds of photo top.  I did the digital when I subcontracted templates and install from another company.  When I template I check everything with my 72" or 12' stabila level, and do a wood template, and take several pictures of the cabinets, floors, and appliances.  I keep the pics in case the customer trys claiming any damage due to install.  With the wood templates I know for sure the job is correct before it leaves the shop.  I don't have a CNC so I don't see the need to try it myself.

When I did the photo top for the other company I would have problems all the time.  To be fair, I wasn't the one doing the CAD work and I'm a perfectionist.  It actually often took me more time to do the phototop than a wood template.  By the time I leveled the first card, put on all the stickers, shot the pics, did a series of actual measurements and diagonals (to check the CAD) and instructions of radius and overhangs, and pull off the tape I could have done a wood template and been on my way.  The wood templates also shows homeowners what their new top will physically be like.  Many can't judge overhangs and designs from CAD drawings.  One more thing is with wood you know what will fit up stairs, in elevators, and thru doors an hallways.

I have never tried the LT-55 but have heard many good things.  I think I'll stick to my sticks for now.  It gives me comfort and peace of mind.

[/QUOTE]

My BS detector just went off.

There is absolutely no way it takes longer to do the template onsite using PhotoTop vs making full stick templates.  If  you are doing new construction and there is no homeowner to talk to and answer questions, you can set up, shoot, and tear down the average 4-5 top kitchen in about 20 minutes.  I have done them in as little as 10 minutes if they are really straightforward. 

It takes 5 minutes to heat up a glue gun.....

If you prefer to make full templates, that's fine.  Nobody can change your opinion.  But the PhotoTop is faster, period.  I'll take the Pepsi challenge on that any day.  I have done a lot of both and there is no doubt on pure speed which method is superior.

Tom, I have adjusted the height of my laser and never had a problem. I will usually mark the top itself and set up taller targets so I dont have to but I must admit I have lowered the laser and the tripod was not perfectly level. Then when I got back to the shop I checked the measurments and the were dead on. Install went great. I have ran into problems shooting directly to side panels and ut cabinets. For some reason It usally shows the cab way out of square. I have since been putting masking tape on the side of the cab and this has fixed the problem.

 

Still, hands down any type of digital templating system is better, more accurate and faster than the stick method.