Ok, I need to vent!

Customer calls several times complaining that she cannot get the stains out of her  SS sink.  I give instructions to use an abrasive cleaner with scotch brite, rub in a circular motion and it should come out.  She can also fill the sink with water, add bleach and let sit.  I have had a SS sink for about 22 years and those methods work for me. 

Stains still do not come out.  I call the mfg. (who shall remain anonymous) and a tech rep goes to look at it.  Here is the answer.

Stain was caused by food residue (some Mexican spicy or similar).  Scotch Brite pad took out MOST of it.  The  lady  is  old,  about 50, and weak , so she cannot maintain the sink properly.  He gave her instructions on how to   maintain.                     

My questions were as follows:
    If the stain did not come out completely, isn't that under warranty? (No it is a maintenance problem)
    If the literature says the product is "nonporous so they resist stains and are easy to clean" , doesn't that imply a                     homeowner can maintain their sink without outside help? (Not the technical departments problem)

So my conclusion is as follows:  Do not sell the sink to anyone over 50 that likes spicy food and inspect the house first to make sure the customer is a good housekeeper.      We do not oversell products and are very upfront about maintenance and care of each product we sell.                                                                                                                                                                              
You would not have wanted to be on the other end of the phone call I had with the Mfg.

Linda

[QUOTE]Linda wrote
  The  lady  is  old,  about 50, and weak , so she cannot maintain the sink properly.                                                                                                                                    
[/QUOTE]

Linda:

I know what you mean. I turned 51 in November and I can't maintain my sink now worth a damn and it's stainless steel. I must be old too.

I installed a solid surface top and sink for a 58 year-old woman last year and unfortunately I haven't gotten any callbacks, as she is totally hot.

I did get a cracked sink callback when I worked for a local fabricator. The sink wasn't cracked, it was a scratch in the crud. I cleaned it and left care instructions.

That's all I know about that,

Joe

 

 

Linda wrote   The  lady  is  old,  about 50, and weak , so she cannot maintain the sink properly.

Umm Linda.. post this so when YOU turn 50 you can see if you still agree with this statement

I didn't say the lady was old, the tech rep said that.  50 is so far in my rear view mirror I can't see it anymore.  I can, however still clean my SS sink.  You know you are getting old when you end sentences in "anymore" . 
Linda

Looks in rear view mirror...EEGGADDDS

I have had the opportunity to service a fair number of SS sinks and have foiund that they can be a problem to get clean if they are allowed to accumulate a build up of food stains.  I tell customers that the best way to keep their sink looking great is to not allow the build up of food stains.  For instance if you pour your last sip of coffee into the sink.  Take the time to run the water and rinse it out.  Same would be true for that spicy food.  Other than that a regaiine of powder cleanser with a scotchbrit pad a couple times a week or as needed does a great job.  Monthly or so I do the bleach treatment that Linda refered to.  I have had my sink for 12 years and it still looks brand new.  I did do a maintanance refinish on it about two years ago (it had a couple of small chips caused by launching my prep knife point first in to the sink).

I tell customers that SS sinks are not maintanance free but that the advantages of being seamless with their counter is a great plus.

Johnny C

Linda I hope that was not a BTP Tech that worked on that sink, if it was then please let me know and we will send them back to remove all of the stains, restore the sink to new and review care n maintenance with the customer.

[QUOTE]KarlC@BTP wrote
Linda I hope that was not a BTP Tech that worked on that sink, if it was then please let me know and we will send them back to remove all of the stains, restore the sink to new and review care n maintenance with the customer.[/QUOTE]

Karl, it was a manufacturer's tech rep. 

There has been some discussion on various threads about overselling the products and not properly educating the customers.  I agree that is sometimes the case.  However, I think the manufacturers oversell in their literature.  Is fair for a homeowner to assume that food can easily be removed if the care and cleaning lists hair dye and iodine as removeable with household cleaners. 

I used this as bit of a test to see what the manufacture does with staining.  I was not pleased.  Too often, the blame if placed on the homeowner or the fabricator. 

While I am bitching, I will add that I am not a big fan of the 10 year warranty.  Many products will last that long but few, if any actually warranty their products for that long.  It is a good selling point, but also gives the customer unrealistic expectations.

OK, I am finished complaining.   Feel free to set me straight.

Linda

While I am bitching, I will add that I am not a big fan of the 10 year warranty.

Linda,
You are preaching to the choir, at least in my case.
Avonite started this when they reintroduced their product after all the initial complaints (many of which were fabricator's faults, not theirs). It had its intended purpose of successfully getting them back into the market, and created the monster that many manufacturers seem to be dialing back from now.

OK, I am finished complaining.   Feel free to set me straight.

No need as far as I can see.

Tom

Linda -

While I agree with you on your basic distain for the 10 year warranty, especially when Mfg. does so much to avoid honoring it (like blaming fabbers and customers), I can see why they maintain using it. With granite prices dropping, it truly is one of the selling points keeping SS competitive in the marketplace. As granite has none, I certainly refer to it when dealing with customers. The warranty and renewability of the product go a long way in the decision making process it would seem.

I cannot, however, subscribe to the notion that statistically 95% of small businesses are out of business within 5 years and fabrication errors by a now non-existant company are generally denied and walked away from. I mean is the warranty worth the paper it's wriiten on or not? 10 years means 10 years, right? Our experience of e-stone Mfg. warranties is even worse. I can count on one hand the amount of times we have seen an e-stone Mfg. actually fix a top at thier own expense. I have often wondered the same thing you titled this thread with "what does your warranty REALLY mean?"

In reading this thread it has made me ponder a couple things that I do not know the answer to exactly. I assume the 10 year warranty is basically againt manufacture defects ....., but what are we as fabricators expected to warranty and for what time frames? Are we suppose to warranty seam failure's for that long or what exactly do we warranty?

Reuben

Reuben,
The ten year warranty for Estone is for defects, but the solid surface ten-year warranty is for fab and installation as well, if a product is put in by a certified installer. Simplicity is an exception, as I assume are some others. It is why we sign an agreement that stipulated us fixing fabricator created problems, that go against proper stated fabrication techniques (as spec'd by each manufacturer). They will fix them, and come after you for the payment to the Gordons and Karls of the fab world. I thinnk that even some Estone products are warranted ofr fab and install as well. Zodiaq and Silestone are, I think.

With granite, it is product only, if at all.
HD and DuPont excepted.

Tom

so what you are saying then is this. We install an SS top and we have 4" bevel seem block like spec, installed level plum etc. and then lets say this seem is by no heat source(stove, dishwasher, coffe pot etc) and 8years after the fact that puppy decides to pop. No heat source ever put over the seam either. So I then have to pay say Gordon to fix with all specs follwed?

Reuben

Remember, I said fabricator created problems. If it is proper fabrication, according to the individual manufacturer, then it should be covered, no charge to you.

When we did repairs for the warranty centers, we did a fair nimber of older repairs (one with 8 months left) that were legit fabrication techniques that just didn't hold. The fabricators were not charged in those cases.

Tom

Okay gotcha Tom kinda didn't let the "fabricator error" thing sink in kinda dense today. Now what happens to instances where the company does not have the fabricatoer sign any form stating we will pay for the repairs if we screw it up. Is this one of those assumed responsibilities or a good case for Judge Judy in the afternoon Tv land? I ask becouse there are some products out stating 10 year warranty, but as long as you carry one certification they will honor the warranty.

Reuben

Reuben,
In that case, it probably comes down to "Can we afford to (keep) fix(ing) this guys problems considering the amount he buys from us." Once the tipping point is reached he will get the "We can no longer afford you as a customer" line, and I would think that is the correct response. Either that, or their warranty ain't worth spit.

Tom

One more warranty point.  All fabricators should keep fabrication manuals for at 10 years so when a 8 or 9 year old countertop has a problem, you can show that your job conformed to  the warranty standards in place at the time of the installation.  So many of the people inspecting the jobs have only been in the business a few years and only know the warranty standards that are in place now. 
Fortunately, we have very few warranty calls, so it really is not an issue., just annoying.

Linda

Linda,
I wonder if FabNet is a place where those of us who have older manuals can post a list or something, that can be sorted so if there is a question we know who has which to find the answer?

I need to point out to all that when I was a warranty agent, primarily for DuPont, Gibralar, and Formica, but I hit everyone every now and then (or then and then), I had very few refusals on claims. I mean from everyone. I remember a DuPont warranty on a top that was nine plus years into it's warranty. DuPont asked if it was legit, I said yes, and they said fix it if you can, but replace it if you must. I know everyone is scaling back nowadays, but that was some warranty backing right there.

It was for a very nice Jewish couple, who made me feel welcome from the moment I entered their home. I never told DuPont, and I'm glad I didn't have to, but there was no way this claim wasn't going to get attention. From the moment I saw the tattoos on their wrists, I knew this couple was getting help. I'm glad I didn't have to worry about it.

Tom

Your a good one Tom.

 

 

 

Just curious tho'.  Are not most (all?) failures caused by something?  If so, and the company does not warrant fabbing or installing, then what repairs are actually, technically covered?

Just wondering,

 

Chris