We are starting to template and install our own quartz tops.  We have arrangements with fabricators already wherein we send them the dxf file to make the tops.  We did the zodiaq training- but it didnt quite fill the cup of knowledge for us.

What necessary tools should we get for installation?  What about cold tops for seaming?  We are thinking we are going to use the Integra adhesive - any thoughts on that?

Any help from my fellow experts would be great!

Tammy

Tammy:

If these three pages don't answer all your questions, post 'em and I'll take my best shot:

http://www.solidsurfacegeeks.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=348&start=0

Joe

Geez.
Experts?
That leaves me out.

Tom

Yea, I'm with Joe on this one.

I like the Integra glue idea for the quartz.  I think you will end up with more consistent seams.

In other words, as Matt states, a good quality transparent knifegrade (and K-Bond is one of them) and a 10 count color kit will match anything you choose to. Let us not overly complex the process.

Tammy,

prepare yourself for a heapin' helpin' of frustration and hair-tearing!

Apart from the learning curve your fitters will have and the problems and mistakes that will arise from that, you have now placed your reputation in the hands of a third party. There will be arguments as to who is responsible when the fabrication is wrong, was it the information you supplied or was it the fabrication process.

Therefore before sorting your staff and tooling I would advise sorting your relationship with your stone fabricator. Get the processes and communication in place. Stone companies have different ideas about tolerances and what constitutes acceptable quality to those you may have and by definition those that your long term customers have come to expect from your company. Make sure they understand your expectations and keep hammering away at them until they will not dare give you anything substandard.

Regarding joints and Integra: I would suggest that you do not attempt tight joints. Make it easy on yourselves for the first year. When you have the experience then consider Integra, or if using ZODIAQ, Corian adhesive. I believe that if you use either of these adhesives you will have to have joints that are as well cut as Corian joints and you may also have to get involved in top polishing which may be difficult for anyone just getting into stone. Aim instead for consistent granite standard joints a few mm wide. That way any chipping or unevenness in the joint edge will not be a problem.

The main tool I'd recommend would be a set of Gorilla Clamps. Otherwise a grinding tool, manual lifting aids and a strong team.

Patrick

 

Tammy,

If I remember correctly, you are selling your Photo-Top?  If you are going to do quartz, I would re-think that idea.  Scribing stone sucks 10x worse than scribing anything else.

Plus, when its that damned heavy, I only like to carry it into the house once.

Tammy:

If you've sold the Photo-Top, refund their money and get it back. You are grinding away profits if you're scribing stone.

I agree with everything Patrick said except his fourth paragraph. In these days of vicious competition, you need to exploit every opening and the gaps in granite seams are wide enough to drive an install truck through. Pound hard here.

I recently took some potential customers to look at a seam I did with Integra and Gorillia Grip clamps on Cambria Sutton. You had to feel for the seam, carefully, because you sure couldn't see it very well. I haven't sold this job yet, but the only possible thing a granite guy could impress these customers with would be an incredibly low price, because his seams aren't going to do it.

Raising the bar,

Joe

Not that I know squat about estone or granite, but I believe someone told me that a joint in either has to be a certain millage for strength, I am wrong?

Joe, Dave, et al,
Assuming everyone uses an adhesive that is strong and will do the job, is there a huge difference when using a solid surface type adhesive versus an epoxy or "knife grade" (if that is what Dave was refering to)?

Norm,

I don't know what kind of minimum you might be referring to, but like I said, ours are machined on both sides on the CNC, so they are tight.

But what you do is back bevel the seam with a hand grinder, careful not to touch the top of the seam, (stay back about 1/4") Open up that sucker at least 1/16" on each side and you will have 1/8" of adhesive packed in that sucker most of the way through.  We also stab the stone a couple of times with the blade of the grinder parallel to the face of the top, thus creating two or three adhesive biscuit joints within a 25" seam. 

If you need an example of the relative strength of the joint, try getting one apart.......

[QUOTE]Tom M wrote
Joe, Dave, et al,
Assuming everyone uses an adhesive that is strong and will do the job, is there a huge difference when using a solid surface type adhesive versus an epoxy or "knife grade" (if that is what Dave was refering to)?[/QUOTE]

Tom:

If the guys at Integra told me to make seams with peanut butter cookie dough, I'd probaby do it. Doug Turner, President of Integra, has spent a career in adhesives, so I didn't have to.

I think production companies should be particularly wary of "mix your own on the job". I'm being serious, but you'd be amazed at the prevelance of color blindness in men as opposed to women. Your gambling five or ten grand everytime Jimmy Install mixes up a batch of home brew. Why wouldn't Jimmy just add more catalyst so he could get over to his girlfriend's faster? Haven't we learned that "more is better" here? The color looked like a match to Jimmy.

So you gamble your five or ten large every time. I'll spend less than 1% at Integra making sure the only thing Jimmy needs to know is purge, bleed, clean, glue and clamp. His girlfriend and my callbacks can wait together forever.

Joe

Joe, you simply have no idea what your talking about. Nobody is gambling squat. While Integra makes a fine adhesive, in the world of stone & e-stone, knife grade and color kits are the norm. Always have been and will continue to be.

I have never...ever heard a customer say they mixed the color in and lost a "5 or 10 grand job" Never. Simply ludicrous. And for lamination, a quality A & B epoxy works like a charm.

You also assume that there is a "Jimmy" doing this work in every shop. There is not. Quality guys that know how to do it.

Well,
I don't know squat about the complexities of adhesive, and pre colored and premixed has a time saving aspect to it. I have to say, though, we have always colored our laminate fill custom and it seems to make a diofference.

So far, we are custom coloring our estone joint adhesive. I keep hearing about using solid surface type glue on stone and estone joints. Is the difference between these glues and the "knife grade" glues not all that much? Why isn't there a consensus on this?

Signed,

Confused in Ct

Joe,

Thanks for the feedback.

Dave,

You are right in that the knife grade polyesters and AB epoxies are the norm in a stone shop and always have been. Always will be? Debatable. 10 years ago, Quartz surfacing was relatively unknown in North America and look where is it now. The Estone 101 adhesive Joe is referring to is, like quartz surfacing, a relatively new product-specifically designed to work with Engineered Stone.

I have spoken with many stone fabricators regarding the tinting and hand mixing of adhesives and I'll agree that the ones who have taken the time to perfect it can do an incredible job of color matching and achieving inconspicuous seams. It is an art in itself especially on the wide range of Natural stone colors available.

On the other hand, with the color consistency of Quartz materials (some better than others), a pre-colored, meter mix dispense system makes a little sense. You achieve the same adhesive color every time, the same cure speed and bond integrity and it is really easy to learn the application. The other benefit is relatively no waste when compared to hand mix adhesives. Finally, the Estone bonder is designed to have sufficient bond strength for both the deck seam and laminations-eliminating the need for two different adhesives on the same job.

By the way, works great on granite too.

I hope this doesn't come off as too much of a sales pitch-just trying to make sure the information about our adhesives is correctly stated.

Chad

[QUOTE]FEDSAWDAVE wrote

Joe, you simply have no idea what your talking about. Nobody is gambling squat. While Integra makes a fine adhesive, in the world of stone & e-stone, knife grade and color kits are the norm. Always have been and will continue to be.

I have never...ever heard a customer say they mixed the color in and lost a "5 or 10 grand job" Never. Simply ludicrous. And for lamination, a quality A & B epoxy works like a charm.

You also assume that there is a "Jimmy" doing this work in every shop. There is not. Quality guys that know how to do it.

[/QUOTE]

(Bear with me guys, I know this is like watching me shoot fish in a barrel, but Davey-boy obviously needs another trip to the woodshed)

Dave:

For us to verify your claim that I know not of what I speak we would have to know how many times you have used epoxy and Integra to make estone seams for a living. We would also need to know how much formal manufacturer training you have had in the application of said adhesives. Also relevant would be your experience at having to go out on callbacks to "pick up after the kids" and/or to supervise same. Perhaps we can compare the technical articles we have had published. You list yours, I'll list mine and we'll let the readers decide if I know of what I speak.

There was a time Dave, when all the buggywhip manufacturer's looked down their noses at the unreliable and noisy junk turned out by the likes of Henry Ford and his ilk. That is very similar to the epoxy manufacturer's but-we've-always-done-it-this-way-just-like-Uncle-Guido attitude. Unlike stone guys, solid surface fabricators who do estone are used to getting PERFECTLY color matched and mixed adhesives from a tube. For a minimum expense, one is lowering the risk of doing business a notch at a time, which reflects on profitability. Profitability is the reason we all get out of bed in the morning. Production fabricators want consistency, repeatability and minimal installer interpretation. Goo-in-a-tube provides all three, ask 'em.

Leadership is about vision, so let's not look at what guys are using now, like the buggywhip manufacturers, but let's look into the future. You bring  a thousand cash and your sales figures for epoxy to the 2010 show. I'll bring a grand and try to talk Integra out of their stats. Biggest percentage increase wins. Fair enough? Or are you scared to get your head shaved again?

(The shotgun is empty, the fish are all dead)

Joe

 P.S.

Let the written record show that at this time I do not and have not received free adhesives and/or payments/compensation from Integra. After this spanking, that may change, however.

Joe, I scanned your post, once again, you're simply a blowhard. Don't ask me what I've done...I'll tell you, what I've seen used in the last 24 years. Get out of your gopher hole Joe and breathe reality.

Chad. I'd like samples of your product. For e-stone, we certainly have many granite guys that are old school and do it the way there fathers did. But now, they've taken on e-stone etc... and I'm open minded to showing them options or telling them about your products. I'll definately take the time to visit you at your booth in Orlando, as long as my guys let me out of dunking booth.

And Joe, remember two things:

1) FEDSAW is a profitable, national supplier to all things Cabinet, Granite & Solid Surface with fabricators on staff, as opposed to an out of business construction company from Michigan.

2) When attempting to shoot fish, make sure said fish are not armed with a howitzer!

 

Dave:

Do you have any money or pride to put where those typing fingers are? Of course not. I know it and the readers know it. Again, you leave my challenges unresponded to, typical of your salesman kind. All talk, no action. When you grow a pair, let me and the readers know.

Most sincerely,

Joe

Point Proven. Blowhard !