Okay guys I know some of you fabricate with solid surface, granite and qaurtz. i do not fabricate with granite or qaurtz however we are trying to offer them as an option and trying to find someone to do us a good job with both. My main question is when the customer asks which product is better, what about sealers, scratches and how do maintain them what do we say, that is the truth and an honest education for the customer. We always try to sell them what the want, but want to make sure they understand what they are getting, but I can not get any one who I have talked to to give me a straight answer. Would like to know what to say to potential customers. Thanks

That is a great question Reuben, and one we get asked all the time.
My response would be that hands down, Engineered Stone is a better product.  It doesn't require a sealer, (Silestone even comes with anti-bacterial microban treated slabs) it resists scratches better, (ES is made of 93% quartz. the 4th hardest mineral on the planet) and it is easy to maintain with just soap and water.

However, most ES has a very predictable pattern, which a lot of people view as "manmade".   Granite has a lot of natural "flaws" and character.  It does do a good job withstanding scratches, but it can stain, and must be sealed on a regular basis (once a year preferably)  Seams will also be a bit more noticable with Granite.

In my opinion, both look good and make a great countertop when done well.  A lot of customers really like the aspect of the character of their top, others it's all about maintenance and ease of cleaning.  As with any product, those factors will be very important when helping a customer pick out a top.

Even Solid Surface, while having positives such as built in sinks, coved splash, drainboards, invisible seams, repairability, among others, has large issuses like scratching easily and very succeptable to heat.  Some of the customers we have (especially those switching from tile) like the ease of cleaning, but have habits of setting hot pots and pans right on their countertops, and so they shy away from solid surface for that reason, even though it has all the other aspects that they really like.

I guess my overall answer would be that no one countertop is the best countertop.  They all have their pros and cons, and all look amazing when fabricated and installed by a skilled worker or business.

-Dennis

Dennis,

   Thanks for some input. The customer we are talking to at this time is liking granite and qautrz because of its shine. How long and easy in the long run is it for the homeowner to keep it maintained. In regards to scratches how well does it handle the occasional husband cutting the fish without a fillet board. Also she doesn't like the overlap over the undermount sinks can you cut them and show a slight reveal for a stainless steel sink?

Dennis,
That was a very well done reply. I would have taken up about twenty paragraphs to answer that. The microban in Silestone makes me wonder, though: What good is the micro-ban if the product is as non-porous (hah!) as they say?

We ask the customer what their cooking habits are, how they entertain, and check the layout of their job. All of these factors seem to affect our thoughts on the question. Then we make a recommendation based on what we think is best for their situation. I will always think that SS is the best material, all things considered, to make countertops out of, but EStone is impressing me more and more.

Reuben, there will always be that customer that will only settle for granite. Even if they are asking you for recommendations, they want the slab stone. We got into the habit of including in all agreement packets, a fact-check sheet, which they sign off on receiving, that spells out the cautions for the product they have chosen. I will never have to worry about a customer telling me I didn't let them know about solid surface scratching, or granite fissures, etc. Just a thought.

Tom,

   I agree with you about the solid surface, but like you say there is that one customer that just wants grainte and now we are seeing them wanting Qaurtz.

About you check off sheet I currently do not do this, but I do alot af fabrication for dealers, do you give them one or how do you handle that. We have had to go back and ease some tensions about they told me it wouln't scratch after it happened and educate the end customer so they were happy about solid surface again.

 

It is very easy to maintain the shine of a stone countertop.  With the EStone, just regular cleaning will be all that is necessary.  With granite, as long as it is sealed regularly and oils or other greasy things are not allowed to sit on the counter for a long period of time, (i.e. leaving a slice of pizza or fried chicken on the counter overnight) it should keep its shine easily.

As for scratches, I have the opinion that a stone countertop will ruin your good knives before it will ruin the top.  When we install either stone or EStone, we use razor blades to clean off marks on the counter, or excess glue, etc.

For the sink issue, Stone can be cut for a slight reveal on a stainless sink.  We prefer it that way.  Usually a 1/16 to 1/8" reveal on all sides.  In this aspect however it is very critical to ensure a skilled fabricator, as stone must be polished with diamond pads, and you can easily carve an uneven cutout. (i.e. 1/16" reveal on left, right, and bottom of bowls, but with a 1/16" reveal on top left and 3/16" reveal on top right of an offset double bowl.)

As far as the Microban goes.

Yes Silestone is non porous, what microban does is prevent bacteria from forming on the surface if you leave the previously mentioned piece of leftover chicken laying around.

Tom,

I also agree strongly with the checklist sheet. or contract or whatever is necessary to ensure the customer is not going to be surprised when their countertops are installed.

You would not believe how many times someone has asked me if the backsplash and countertop (Granite) are going to be in one piece (coved) when we are in the middle of installing.

Dennis, I think the checklist is a great idea.  If you have it in a file, would you share it with others?

I sold a ES job about 2 yrs ago, telling the pepole, you can see the seam and feel the seam. They complained because they could see it and feel it. They said " we didn't know this was what you meant. They were not happy campers. Things that make you go humm....

Reuben, we don't fabricate e-stone or granite at this time, but are looking into both.  Here is what I have found out about both, or at least my current opinions as they might change as more info is  absorbed.

E- stone cons:   When it first came out, the salesmen came by, left a box and crowed about the non staining and un scratchable surface.  Of course I went out and got a good drywall screw and scratched it and stained it with a sharpie pen.  Seems like the solid surface part of the mix won't stain, but it will scratch, leaving a dotted line.  The stone portion won't scratch, but it can be stained.  We sell e-stone, have three brands currently available with others able to fabricate.  Warrantee cards warn about many dangers to the product, scratching, staining, etching, high ph cleaners, oil soaps, permanant markers, and I am probally missing some.  They also warn about hot pots.  Now, some of this might be a manufacture covering all bets.  I do have several ads from nationial trade magazines that were taken out warning salespeople not to promise non-scratch and hot pot proof qualities of their product.  I also know that the local big box stores have placards on their tops warning of the same issues.  I have heard second hand of problems with slight bowing, water spots, and voids.  The e-stone repair seminar I attended at issfa this spring seemed to suggest that there is quite a bit of e-stone repair needed, that it isn't going to be an inconspicous repair, and even advocated tricking the customer by finishing the repair and then hand polishing a nearby spot when the customer walks in, pointing to the good spot and asking if that was acceptable.  It was also shown that although it can be face polished, get ready to spend hours repolishing  and you might or might not get it to blend.   The seams will vary, local big box stores have huge seams, but  I have seen e-stone seams that look like a really bad solid surface seam.  No slamming intended with that comment, actually a compliment to the fabricator to get it that close.  I have also read on other sites that heat will pop out quartz grains if a trivet isn't used.

E-stones pros:  It is a lot harder than solid surface, it can be polished like a polyester solid surface top, at the factory I assume but could be wrong and perhaps a good fabricator could top polish.  It does have a warrantee.

All that being said, I would rather have e-stone than granite any day.  If solid surface wasn't   available, I would fabricate e-stone.  Please take my advice with a little caution as I am still learning about this stuff, so verify these opinions elsewhere.

Granite Pros:  very high profit margin.  I have seen granite for a little over $2.00 per foot, with $4.00 and $6.00 very common, buying large quanities in containers.   A good website forum like stoneadvice.com will give you a lot of info, but it breaks when it wants to, crack or fissure isn't easily determineed, watch that you keep extra on hand for when part of a top breaks, the waste factor can be huge although the material can be cheap, you will hear stories of guys breaking legs, even amputations when a slab falls on workers.  I understand that OSHA is formulating new rules to cover the increase in injuries so fabricating this stuff is best left to the pro's.

Granite will stain, sliced cheese, ranch dressing, coffe, tea, soda, soy sauce, coffee,even water with mineral content will leave spots if it soaks in and it will soak in.  We keep a few slabs remanents  around, if a customer is considring granite, we will show them a slab, put a wringed out sponge on it and show them around the showroom and talk about counter tops, then right before they go, show them the bottom of the slab with the water soaked through.  Good sites like findstone.com will educate you about sealers, what they will and won't do.  You can learn how to do a water test on granite, what stains can be removed  and even what is granite and what is "granite".  You can learn about seams, how it is possible to get smooth seams, but it is a skill polishing them that not all master.  Market saturation is becoming a problem in some areas of the country and prices are getting lower.

As you can guess, I an not a fan of either material.  I am selling the e-stone and should have some prefab granite in soon to offer customers.  I am going to have to learn how to fabricate both, might change my mind after I get to the skill level that I can repair and repolish the stuff.  In my humble opinion, granite is oversold.  They will tell you that only diamonds and topaz is harder, so it won't scratch, then you find out on forums that sometimes the metal base of the saw will leave scratches on the slab.  Findstone.com is one of the best resources for getting the real story on what granite is and it isn't.

Dennis,

 

I mean no disrespect but I would disagree with these parts of your statement, at least in my area. First your statement about the solid surface being “very susceptible to heat” we rarely have issues or repairs regarding heat problems however it may be because of the education we give to our customers. I had a customer that had a new solid surface kitchen done about a week before they had a small fire in the kitchen, I guess the husband was cooking without the wife’s permission when he put the pan that was on fire right on the countertop, by the time he realized it there was a white ring left behind. It took about 10 minutes and it was completely sanded out. I know that it could have been worse but I feel solid surface holds up to heat better than most people realize.

 

 Secondly “habits of setting hot pots and pans right on their countertops”  when I tell people that tile or granite can take more heat than other products their comment is that they always use hot plates or trivets anyway so it is not much of a concern. I have seen tile crack from too much heat, granite discolor from excessive heat and quartz turn white, and although these products take more heat than solid surface or laminate I tell the client “do you really want to take the chance with your new countertops with how much heat they can take before it is too much ?”

 

I do agree 100% with your overall answer.[EMO]bigsmile.gif[/EMO]

 

Shane

 

 

I agree with Shane.

Andy,

Is there some place on the forum where I can either zip, or individually upload my "Fact Sheet"s on countertop purchases? We hand them out with a sign-off on every agreement. They are pretty good, but I would be happy to hear advice on how to word them better. It may also help others who think they should try this.

 

Tom

You would have to convert them to a gif or jpeg.  If I allowed files, they may contain viruses that could possibly shut down the site.

How hard would it be to send them (zipped or otherwise) to you, you scan them and tuck them somewhere?
If we keep them in their .doc format, they could be edited and copied in an ongoing event, till we've gotten a info sheet that is as good as the space will allow. Cyber Bar Brawls could erupt, hilarity ensues.

I have it:
The tool gurus come up with prizes for the top 10 (let's see, I'd probably come in 11th...) - the top 11 info sheets.
You and Mory are the final judges, bribes encouraged, and it becomes the FabForum official one page customer info fact sheet.

Should be:
    Single page in at least 12 font.
    First part should have common info in always the same spot. This is usually plumbing, electrical, cabinet prep, etc.
    The other part should be material specific - solid surface and the unique warnings, Estone, Granite (yes, it should be different from Estone).

Dave, Steve, pony up!



You know, there just may be an idea in there.

First off, Al, that was great. I have to think about what you said, but that's good stuff. Thanks.

Shane,
I love talking with honest guys who know their stuff: Yesterday, my stone supplier came in and gave me a quick learning lesson. When heat came up, I told them I heard about a 475 degree range, before granite is at risk. He said granite, heated in the right conditions won't get to serious damage till almost 2,000, again, ideal conditions. The sealant, however, and other elements that might be in contact with it will certainly discolor. He put this at about 500 or so, with the sealers he knows about.

If there is any kind of anything on the surface, it will be affected by extreme heat, and that's a different story. Penetration issues, etc.

And then he said something I had never considered. The real problem with not using a heat trivet on stone, is that the heat transfer to the surface will rise to the point where some kid could put his hand on it, and burn himself. I never considered that. I will now.

This is a simple, honest, and very important rebuttal to customers who say the heat issue is important. I was impressed.

Tom

Tom,

We can make a section where files can be uploaded.  If I get you right, you want to make a section that fabricators can upload documents and files that others could then use for their own business.  Kinda like a business document center.

Am I understanding your idea?

Hey, Andy,

Yeah, you pretty much have it, but I would go a step further. If we can see who takes the idea and submits improved versions, a favorite for each material could be chosen and used or altered as desired by the folks for their customers. Some might be better worded or suited for dealers, remodlers, or for us to use direct to the customer. It could save an awful lot of "I was never told" problems.

Tom

That sounds like an excellent idea. It would help eliminate some of my own "learning experiences" that I am currently wading through.

I would also be curious to see some of the contracts for fabricataion that you guys are using if you would be willing to share.

Thanks

We just received a new home improvement contract form our attorney that he wants us to use. I did not have a chance to look at it today but my wife said she did not like what she saw when she reviewed it. Too much legal stuff….go figure.

 

Shane

sanity,

We are members of the NKBA, which entitles us to use their contract template. We adapted it to be more countertop specific and it seem to work well. I will mail you out one, if you send me by email your snail mail addy.

This is seperate from the fact sheet guide I was refering to earlier, but we have a sign-off on the agreement that states the customer has received it.

Tom