Al Gerhart
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| 02 Apr 2007 08:05 PM |
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Gordon, some actual cases on granite being effected by heat would be invaluable. |
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| "if it is so safe, why aren't they supporting the testing?" |
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Linda
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| 02 Apr 2007 08:30 PM |
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Hi Guys,
I just have to get in on this discussion. Keep in mind, I am from the crazy state of California. The rest of the country may think differently.
You are all being so practical. I think we need to think about WHY people want granite or quartz. Remember, you probably have bought a car sometime in your life that was anything but practical. You bought it because you thought it made you look cool or that is what everyone else had, or it is something you always admired and finally could afford it or you just liked it and the hell with the gas mileage, repair cost or resale value.
That is why a lot of people buy granite or quartz. They see in in all of the magazines and in just about every model home on the market. Remember, home builders are not selling practical, they are selling dreams. When was the last time you saw a high end magazine touting the advantages of solid surface. Granite and quartz are everywhere.
The first thing most customers do when they start thinking about remodeling, is to buy every magazine on the market and visit model homes. Then they start trying to figure out how to make their home look like the pictures. SO.......how do we get solid surface back in the magazines and get the homebuilders to show solid surface with a few bells and whistles. I certainly don't know the answer but it would be nice to see it happen.
Linda |
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| Linda
Olive Mill |
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Tom M
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| 02 Apr 2007 08:58 PM |
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Linda,
Thanks for the focus.
It seems to me that the best way to show flexibility and creativity with solid surface, while keeping an eye on economics, is to display at least one of the following:
- Simple, 1 color inlays. These can be pinstripe, interwoven pinstripes, corner accents, etc. One color will keep it much more affordable. Close second -2 colors that are seperated for same pour.
- Thicker edges. 2" with custom route. Tell them they are tough to clean, but still - compared to yhe competition, it's still easy. Norm owns this.
- Wall sheets with routes - unfilled. Easy enough to come up with a pattern that is even across the wall. CAD has an array copy that will tailor your repeats to the space. Close second: Filled wall sheet inlays.
- COVE!!!!!1111!!!
- interior borders (intartia?)
added by Andy
Others?
I'm especially waiting for Joe and Dani on this. Remember to account for averaging the result with an affordable upgrade.
How's that Linda? Good start?
Tom |
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| "Our doubts are traitors and make us lose the good we oft might win, by fearing to attempt." - Shakespeare |
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Tom M
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| 02 Apr 2007 09:00 PM |
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Personally, I need to get better with decorative wall sheets like Mystera. I am woefully behind in the cool look part of this trade. |
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| "Our doubts are traitors and make us lose the good we oft might win, by fearing to attempt." - Shakespeare |
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Linda
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| 02 Apr 2007 09:48 PM |
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Tom,
That is a great start now how do we get the builders and magazines to show the creativity of solid surface?
We do all of the products but I am still more comfortable selling solid surface (20 years will do that). I long for the days when the customers walked in the door and said " I want Corian" instead of "My mother had Corian, I want granite or quartz"
We used to do a lot of inlays, sandblasted patterns, and pin striping. It was hard to charge enough to pay for the time but that was before the CNC. There is not much interest in those upgrades now.
Hey, I have no answers, just questions. Fortunately, Val and Jennifer do most of the selling. I just answer technical questions about solid surface and keep my nose in the books.
Linda
Linda |
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| Linda
Olive Mill |
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Tom M
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| 02 Apr 2007 10:08 PM |
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There is not much interest in those upgrades now.
Absolutely true, Linda, but how much of that is our fault?
Tom |
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| "Our doubts are traitors and make us lose the good we oft might win, by fearing to attempt." - Shakespeare |
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Andy
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| 03 Apr 2007 12:25 AM |
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Seems like we have all been focusing on the basics to push the jobs through. What about drain boards? Not typical on granite. |
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FabNet Administrator
andy@thefabricatornetwork.com
Countertop Company - www.OliveMill.com |
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Tom M
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| 03 Apr 2007 11:00 AM |
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Andy,
Good choice. I put that in the bullett point post as an ad-on. |
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| "Our doubts are traitors and make us lose the good we oft might win, by fearing to attempt." - Shakespeare |
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Karl Crooks
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| 03 Apr 2007 11:18 AM |
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Linda, you nailed it..... why most people buy...... and working together we can change the tide more toward the SS direction as Andy has shown us. |
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| RESTORE ~ RENEW ~ REJOICE !
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Linda
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| 03 Apr 2007 12:25 PM |
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[QUOTE] Andy wrote
Seems like we have all been focusing on the basics to push the jobs through. What about drain boards? Not typical on granite.
[/QUOTE]
In retrospect, when we started selling granite and quartz, we also started phasing out selling upgrades on solid surface. The main reason was to make all solid surface cost less than the granite and quartz. The home centers were advertising all of the products in about the same price range. In some cases granite was advertised as less than SS. We took the displays with fancy inlays out of the showroom and replaced with the other products. With the exception of a cove splash, drainboard and upgrade edges, all solid surface is fairly simple.
Perhaps it is time to remind our customers about the possibilities of SS. I have quite a few pictures of inlays we did in the past, before CNC. If I can find them and get help from Andy, I will post some. We also had some great sandblasting work done in the past.. I have not seen anyone show that in years.
Keep your thinking caps on everyone. Perhaps together you can come up with creatvie and cost effective ways to increase sales.
Linda |
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| Linda
Olive Mill |
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SAI Gordon
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| 03 Apr 2007 04:35 PM |
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[QUOTE]Gordon, some actual cases on granite being effected by heat would be invaluable. [/QUOTE]
Al -
The majority of the issue we see with granite that are heat related have to do with 90* corners at the cooktop cut out and with putting high heat sources on granite that is internally wet from improper sealing. Most granite owners don't maintain the seal on thier stone. Water enters, and if the water gets heated too much the hydraulic pressure will spall the top surface of the stone or crack it. Also, many stone tops fracture from relaxing too far over unlevel or moving cabinetry. This is especially evident on older cabinets that have only been refaced. The cabinets are simply not strong enough for the weight.
I agree with Linda that we should take a positive approach to SS sales, but I can't help but think that people are wising up to the differences already. The folks that just had granite put in a couple or three years ago and are dealing with these issues so soon are not quiet about thier discontent. |
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Gordo (a.k.a. The Fro Bro)
Surface Authority, Inc.
www.surfaceauthority.com |
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Karl Crooks
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| 03 Apr 2007 04:47 PM |
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Gordon, great points, we are seeing some of the same problems (also with Quartz cut outs) . When I think about how cheep you can get stone for now, and what comes with cheep ? Bad quality products and service, this relates to more problems in the feild after the products have been installed. |
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| RESTORE ~ RENEW ~ REJOICE !
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Al Gerhart
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| 03 Apr 2007 07:52 PM |
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Thanks for the info, Gordon. Would it be okay to quote you on the heat related problems? It might save consumers a little trouble if they knew it was possible for heat to spall the top. Most of the stone sites claim you can use open flame on the granite, some talk about flamed granite and count on consumers ignorance about what the process does to the granite surface, just use it as an example of how bullet proof granite is to heat.
I completely agree with you and Linda, that when selling it pays to stay positive. However, publishing the negatives are usefull as well. |
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| "if it is so safe, why aren't they supporting the testing?" |
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Al Gerhart
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| 03 Apr 2007 07:54 PM |
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Both of you guys, Gordon and Karl, would do us a great favor if you would write an article on repairs, the most common types and what caused the problems. |
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| "if it is so safe, why aren't they supporting the testing?" |
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Wags
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| 03 Apr 2007 08:32 PM |
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There is a big difference between using a flame to "show how heat proof" granite is and haveing concentrated heat in one area (hot pan). The thermal shock happens when a sudden and extreme heat (or cold) which is different from the surrounding area. The Expansion or contraction set up stress that must go somewhere, eventually. |
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Tom M
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| 03 Apr 2007 09:24 PM |
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This is the first I have heard about the moisture theory with regards cracking, or other damage.
Are you confident of this Gordon? And how often does this kind of problem happen.
Second question to you and Karl:
Is there some easy way to jostle your records to find the info that al is asking for?
It would be nice to hear what really helps or hurts, and where weak points in the products are, as derived from actual statistical data. We would need to have a fair percentage value, as well.
Tom |
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| "Our doubts are traitors and make us lose the good we oft might win, by fearing to attempt." - Shakespeare |
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SAI Gordon
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| 04 Apr 2007 12:31 PM |
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Thanks, Karl. I appreciate your kind words.
Tom, it would impossible to establish, percentage wise, how much this goes on as I can't really know how much of this material is sold here and how much of the repair work I actually see. But as for the instance, it does happen, a bit. As for the statistical data, we don't really track our work that way. On the other hand, Karl and I have mounds of general experience with this and (at the risk of speaking for BTP) would be glad to relay whatever general data and gudelines you may need. I can tell you that the vast majority of Granite failures we see are due to installation and substrate issues.
Wags, you are absolutely right here. I can hold a flame to the top when it is new and dry, but I put a hot pot on a granite top and cover daily use moisture with a flat surface for several minutes and it will likely spall, discolor, or crack. |
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Gordo (a.k.a. The Fro Bro)
Surface Authority, Inc.
www.surfaceauthority.com |
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Andy
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| 04 Apr 2007 03:05 PM |
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This picture was sent by a FabNet member. You couldn't do this with Granite. |
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andy@thefabricatornetwork.com
Countertop Company - www.OliveMill.com |
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Joe
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| 04 Apr 2007 05:59 PM |
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[QUOTE] Andy wrote
This picture was sent by a FabNet member. You couldn't do this with Granite.
[/QUOTE]
Andy:
As much as I would like to believe you, I cannot underestimate the water jet capabilities of the stone boys.
Joe |
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Karl Crooks
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| 05 Apr 2007 09:36 AM |
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We would be glad to help if we can, thanks ! |
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| RESTORE ~ RENEW ~ REJOICE !
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