Posted By Tom M on 10 Nov 2008 07:08 PM
Joe,
So it is your position that Jefferson was not in favor of saying a prayer of Christian faith in school, and that he would have approved of Gay Marriage? I'm only trying to see where you guys part ways.

I also do not see where Jefferson disagrees with anyone here. I may have missed it, but I don't see anyone calling for a national day of prayer. Jefferson certainly agreed with the acknowledgment of the Christian religion in the fabric of the country. He understood faith as the foundation for a country of laws, not men.

Tom:

I have shown that Jefferson would not support government-sanctioned prayer days. That should give you an idea as to how he felt about school prayer.

I can't bet that a guy who owned and had sexual relationships with his slaves would see the fairness and fundemental civil rights of gay marriage.

You seem to try to make the case that I disagree with Jefferson, yet you don't site any specific examples.

Jefferson clearly disagrees with someone here. Wags made the case that because Jefferson's "wall of sepatation between church and state" doesn't appear anywhere in the Constitution, it is somehow not applicable. I showed that there are many unenumerated "Constitutional rights".

Lenny make the case that we were founded as a Christian nation. The United States Senate disagreed with Lenny when it ratified the Treaty of Tripoli.

Andy says no one is harmed for "not believing" and I gave him a specific example of my having suffered discrimination for same.

Please site where Thomas Jefferson's writing "acknowledges the Christian religion in the fabric of the country".

Joe

Posted By Chris on 10 Nov 2008 10:24 PM

As to gay marriage, I believe that to be an issue of semantics. Most people agree that gay partners should have the same legal rights as hetero couples (inheritance, visiting rights, insurance, tax breaks, etc.), but the debate is always over what we call it. The practical solution is simply to make everything a civil union in the eyes of the State, and leave marriage to your particular religion.

Chris:

I wish I could agree. Unfortunately, a long-term same-sex partner has virtually no rights as to a say in the care of their loved one in the state of Michigan since the passage of our "Bigotry in Marriage" constitutional amendment.

Apparently those "Christians" who worked so hard to pass this amendment conveniently forgot the ninth commandment against bearing false witness. They promised in their ads that "no one would lose their health care benifits." Liars. As soon as it passed they went to court to discontinue the benifits provided same sex partners by the state of Michigan.

I have personal knowledge of an innocent three-year-old whose mother has to pay health insurance premiums for his coverage. Either that or give her son up for adoption so his "other mommy's" excellent health insurance will cover him. Decent civilized folks think this is too high a price to pay.

Don't think for a minute that gay marriage is just a semantical game. There are real victims of the bigotry of "marriage amendments."

Joe

You may have read this before, but it seems it should be reposted here, continuing our guns and religion theme:

Kowboy Visits the Creation Museum

I’m a member of Ohioans For Concealed Carry, a gun rights organization which was having an informal meeting in Middletown, Ohio, which I attended recently. On the four-hour drive down from Michigan, I heard the radio say that I wasn’t far from the new Creationist Museum just over the border in Kentucky. Was this fate or coincidence, or does Somebody want me to check this place out?

After spending the night at a friend’s, I decide to visit in the morning. I notice that the state of Kentucky has installed an official highway sign on I-275 directing you to the museum. While I found it helpful like the gas, food and lodging signs, I wondered if it didn’t somehow violate the separation of church and state.

As you make a left turn onto the street, you pass a funky concrete business and large open fields and realize the rural country you’re in. The many Christian radio stations locally are a big hint too. You can’t miss the entrance. Two backlit stegosauruses stand sentry duty on top of the gate walls, looking like those plywood cutouts of the farmer with his pipe and the bent-over lady you see for sale on country roads, fashioned by retirees with too much time on their hands.

Halfway down the driveway, there’s a sign in print so small that you’ll have to get out of your car to read it that says, in so many words, “Be polite.” In other words, they don’t want any head-banging between a Satanic atheist and a bible-thumping born-aginner despoiling the experiences of other guests. This seems surprisingly reasonable. The genuine rent-a-cops directing traffic in the parking lot are, like myself, carrying real firearms. Unlike mine, theirs are not concealed. The we-ain’t –foolin’-around tone they set seems consistent with this place.

The museum opens at ten o’clock, the parking lot is filling up quickly and I’m standing in line outside on a beautiful Friday morning, waiting to get in at 10:35 a.m. They’re letting us enter in groups to keep the air conditioning inside. With a capacity of 690, and despite the $19.95 admission, we’re going to be full up in no time. There are lots of families with kids, mostly white folks and lots of T-shirts declaring your church or faith or both.

The architecture is impressive. The three-story gunnite walls in the entrance look very much like real stone and the groutless square floor pavers contribute nicely to the prehistoric feel. Fred Flintstone meets Frank Lloyd Wright. The missing ceiling tiles with the wire hanging out don’t add to the effect.

I sign up for the five-dollar admission discount by giving up my email address and use the savings to purchase a seat in the Stargazing room which is the planetarium. Nice cushy La-Z-Boy type seats are provided so you can recline and view the presentation on the rounded ceiling. The view and the statistics on the universe are spectacular. Even the most science-averse among us will find this entertaining and interesting. While the Bible has plenty of information in it, I’m sure the distance from the Earth to the Sun and from solar system to solar system isn’t in there. The folks at Answers In Genesis, the founders of the Creation Museum, have no qualms about using science here. However, they do mention the problem of how, if the universe is only 6,000 years old, can starlight traveling billions of light years be reaching us now? They give a several-word explanation which I can’t recall, but they don’t elaborate.

After the planetarium, I’m standing in line for the museum proper behind two Amish or Mennonite twenty-something’s. He’s dressed in shirt and jeans; she’s got the gingham dress, tennis shoes and hair covering. These two are all over each other, and just as I’m about to suggest they get a room, the line moves us along. The devil, in the form of teenage lust, has apparently snuck in the door.

“Different starting points, different assumptions.” is how you’re greeted in the museum. “Different views of the past, apes, rocks, fossils and God’s word.” Video screens with short loops are everywhere. The introductory dinosaur, Utahraptor, is so incredibly life-like, you can almost feel his scales and smell his breath. He may be too convincing for small children. Mr. Buddy Davis, the dinosaur sculptor, is a master. His work showing humans and dinosaurs living together is less convincing.

A short synopsis of the Scopes trial is on video as we head down the careening hallway which looks like a rough urban setting, apparently showing us how far we’ve collectively fallen. Abandoned electrical boxes, graffiti and torn magazine covers stuck to the wall featuring abortion and homosexuality add to the effect.

We are bottlenecked here, waiting for the four-minute presentation in the Six Days of Creation Theater where we see Adam and Eve with dinosaurs and find out plants were created before sunlight. Hmmm. Well, it was only a day. I guess if plants can stand the ride home in my trunk from the greenhouse, they ought to be able to wait until God creates the sun.

Another video says what I’ve been thinking all along and I’m glad to see them admit it: “If you undermine Genesis 1-11, Christianity collapses.” Now we’re getting somewhere. This museum isn’t about creation; it’s about keeping the entire Christian faith from collapsing on itself. If you can’t or don’t believe the first few pages of the Bible, what else in it can you believe? This is why people can ignore overwhelming scientific evidence contrary to their religious beliefs. Want proof? “Reason is now the chief authority, not God, not his word.” Yikes.

Off to the Garden of Eden where Buddy’s serpent model is extraordinary as is the length of Eve’s hair, which conveniently falls, negating her need for clothes while not offending even the most modest Christian sensibilities. A real puzzler is where Cain, one of the sons of Adam and Eve, got his wife. According to the Creation Museum, Cain married his sister. He had to, there was no one else. Besides, incest is O.K. back then because there were so few people, there were no mutations in the gene pool. And they throw this in: “People who do not accept the bible as the absolute authority have no basis for condemning Cain from marrying his sister.” I guess that settles that.

Here are some odds ‘n ends: Methuselah lived 969 years and knew Noah. A cubit is equal to the length of your elbow to your fingertip. Noah built the ark; God brought the animals, including dinosaurs. The Tower of Babel is how and where God made all the different languages people speak.

I’m waiting for the Last Adam Theater show. There are several video screens with “Is there a God?” and later “Who is Jesus?” asked of interviewees. They choose the most inarticulate, quasi-educated young bumblers to answer the questions and combined with the black and white/color pictures superimposed on each other, it is nearly unwatchable for an extended period. The Last Adam show is a synopsis of the Christian faith and counselors are available in private after the show, should you need same.

The theater empties you into the Bookstore and on your way you’ll see some very high quality genuine fossils. The bookstore has DVD’s, Apparel, Layman, Bible Reference, Kids and Multimedia among other departments. The surprise of the book of ABC’s according to Adam and Eve and the Children’s Book of Dinosaurs was in direct inverted proportion to your grasp and belief in science.

My last show, “Men in White”, is the creationist argument as presented by two geeky guy angels. The animatronics female protagonist is sitting permanently on stage around an imitation campfire waxing philosophically. This campfire scene is popular and is used in other presentations. Like a Schwarzenegger movie, you’ve got to suspend belief a bit to get it. When they get to Noah’s part of the story, the 180 degree screen is sloshing and the Ark’s a-floatin’, I swear I’m not making this up, they sprits you with water from the ceiling! And just in case you’re not wearing glasses and thought you imagined it, they do it again! Once more for good measure and you’re done. Cool. Does this count as a baptism?

This theater isn’t far from the cafeteria, must be an intelligent designer architect. It’s 3:30 p.m. and I’ve been here since 10:30 a.m. so I need some late lunch. The pre-made salmon salad on a croissant is delicious and the tomato pasta soup isn’t bad either. I spill some on my new shirt. I eat outside and note that the manicured grounds are very pretty. There is still some construction going on, forty million bucks just doesn’t go as far as it used to, I guess. God took six days, they’re taking seven years plus. With the exception of the missing stair tread nosing in the theater, a hole in the wall at the concession stand and the wire through the ceiling tiles, they’ve done a very impressive Disneyesque job of attention to detail and overall experience.

I go back in to surreptitiously interview two kids working the concession stand. There is no line. “Do you have to be a Christian to work here?” I ask. “Yes.”, the lovely twenty-three-year-old girl tells me. I think the Devil left the Amish kids and has taken hold of me, she is adorable. “You have to give testimony to work here. I admitted that I didn’t go to church every Sunday and the woman who interviewed me said she would pray for my soul. I didn’t think I would get the job, but here I am.” She says. The Pope scares her. She doesn’t think religion should have that much government power. Amen.

Joe

I have shown that Jefferson would not support government-sanctioned prayer days. That should give you an idea as to how he felt about school prayer.

That's quite a leap, in my opinion, Joe.  I don't see it. Your milage obviously varies.


I can't bet that a guy who owned and had sexual relationships with his slaves would see the fairness and fundemental civil rights of gay marriage.

You are saying that you "can't bet", I agree with you and it proves my point. If you meant to type "can", then I must stand athwart your comment and say "whoa!" That's a huge leap, and one I would consider false on at least two levels of logic leap.

Posted By Tom M on 11 Nov 2008 08:07 AM
I have shown that Jefferson would not support government-sanctioned prayer days. That should give you an idea as to how he felt about school prayer.

That's quite a leap, in my opinion, Joe.  I don't see it. Your milage obviously varies.


I can't bet that a guy who owned and had sexual relationships with his slaves would see the fairness and fundemental civil rights of gay marriage.

You are saying that you "can't bet", I agree with you and it proves my point. If you meant to type "can", then I must stand athwart your comment and say "whoa!" That's a huge leap, and one I would consider false on at least two levels of logic leap.

Tom:

I can barely see a difference between a statesman endorsing a "prayer day" and the state itself (public school) leading students in prayer. That's hardly a great leap, my friend.

Tom, you are trying to make Jefferson an opponent of gay marriage by removing all context whatsoever. That is unfair and illogical.

Joe

Joe, it really doesn't matter if you can barely see a difference, it matters if Jeffy Mads could barely see a difference. Neither of us knows, for sure, so there is little to be gained at the debate excepting to let you know that I see a huge difference. As you say yourself about matter number two, context is very important here, and to think that they viewed religious expression in the same context as we do today is, as you also say: illogical.

..............................................................................

"Tom, you are trying to make Jefferson an opponent of gay marriage by removing all context whatsoever. That is unfair and illogical."

Here's context for you: Gays were deviants and abominations to the people. Slaves were property. Do you see a difference now? You can't marry your couch, Joe.

Posted By Tom M on 11 Nov 2008 01:18 PM 
You can't marry your couch, Joe.

Tom:

That's probably the best advice I've ever gotten from a bulletin board.

Thanks,

Joe

"Here's context for you: Gays were deviants and abominations to the people. Slaves were property. Do you see a difference now?"

Tom:

You say gays WERE deviants and abomnations to the people. Unfortunately, the very same people who can clearly see that slavery is wrong  believe that gays ARE deviants and abomnations, as evidenced by their enshrining bigotry into state constitutions.

Joe

Okay, assuming we can move on from assigning meaning to what the fathers wrote, we start to merge and agree.

Gays are, in my opinion, most certainly not an aberration. Deviant? Of course they are. In the sense that, biologically speaking, the intended result and action of the pairing deviates what nature evolved the pairing for, and the action required to attain said pairing.

As far as the folks in bigotville that feel they are aberrations, they are free to think what they think. Ignorant as you and I may think they are, that's not going to change them. 'nuff said.

As far as gay marriage being a necessary component for full rights and privileges as a citizen? I don't buy it. Civil recognition of the pairing and all the legal ramifications that go along with it? Abso-frickin'-lutely. You don't have to call it marriage to get the rights. There is no constitutional right to change definitions if you get offended by your exclusion from them. Words have definitions.

UH-oh guys...this thread is bringing out the gay in me...

  i read this whole thread and really enjoying the knowlege. I gotta admit I am confused now and have a strange desire to Kiss both of youse guys on the mouth...I learnt so much history i feel like im on that game show Jepoardy...this is Gay jeopardy...tommy jefferson got sugar in his tank or what?

any of youse wanna share a room at the show with me?

Sure, I tell you I'm not going and you instantly set out more bait?

Ugh, you're such a typical male.

Posted By Gene McDonald on 11 Nov 2008 05:57 PM
UH-oh guys...this thread is bringing out the gay in me...

  i read this whole thread and really enjoying the knowlege. I gotta admit I am confused now and have a strange desire to Kiss both of youse guys on the mouth...I learnt so much history i feel like im on that game show Jepoardy...this is Gay jeopardy...tommy jefferson got sugar in his tank or what?

any of youse wanna share a room at the show with me?

Gene:

You are not gay. There is no gay in you to be brought out. Gay is an orientation, more similar to skin color than to a preference for Ginger or Mary Ann.

No, Gene, what you have is much more insideous than getting in touch with your more feminine side. You have been possessed by the Devil. Since you said you read the whole thread, when you got to the last paragraph of "Kowboy Visits The Creation Museum", the Devil who had possessed the Amish kids, then me, has now jumped into you.

Fortunately, I do exorcism's and very reasonably. It's my new speciality since work has slowed. You send me money and I drive out demons. Lucky for you, I'm having a sale this week only, so hurry. I take charge cards. Dial 1-800-666-6666.

Joe

I was laughing Joe....i was beginning to wonder...i guess they call that curious...im taking the nail polish off my toes as we speak...and for the record Gay poeple getting married has nothing to do with my marriage...

 I know alot of people griping about them marrying have been divorced and remarried a couple of times...wouldnt that be more of a sin than two women who been together for years tieing the knot

i mean what do i care...its not illegal to be gay or live together and then when one of them goes into the hospital for a serious car accident...only immediate family...someone whos been together for years cant get in...i would hate that

should those holier than thou types be having picket signs outside divorce lawyer firms and divorce courts, rather than worry about what other people do who obvoiusly wanna be together....i mean some of these people think they can talk gay people outta of being gay...

Why didnt God make us all alike?...

"Fortunately, I do exorcism's and very reasonably. It's my new speciality since work has slowed. You send me money and I drive out demons. Lucky for you, I'm having a sale this week only, so hurry. I take charge cards. Dial 1-800-666-6666."

That's funny on at least three levels.

Kudos, Joe.

Posted By Tom M on 09 Nov 2008 08:03 PM
You also seem to equate race-based decisions as on a par with sexual orientation based decisions. I don't see where they are similar enough to make your example successful.

Tom:

This guy rebuts your point much better than I. In fact, he annihilates it. The fact that he's black is irrelevant.

Joe

Joe,   

Thanks for providing that link,  I  try to read Lenard Pitts Jr.'s  columns,  his writing
is usually on the mark with social issues.
  I would recommend the documentary   " Bible Camp"  to help emphasis the need for the separation of church and state. 

Curt

"When they say they'd have no trouble with gay people if they would just stop "flaunting" their sexuality, doesn't it bring to mind all those good ol' boys who said they had no problem with "Nigras" so long as they stayed in their place?"

Okay, this is just silly. To compare these two is moral relativism to the nth degree. "...stayed in their place" was referring to keeping the Black man down. Living in squalor and not climbing any ladder except to emerge from the sewer pits after a long days slog. "Flaunting" their sexuality is referring to public imposition of a lifestyle as if to say "You MUST accept us! How DARE you NOT accept us".

The argument is specious at best, and deliberately misleading at worst. Pitts does this  sometimes, but he's usually better at narrowing his focus to keep the point at hand.

"On the contrary, gay people, like black people, know what it's like to be left out, lied about, scapegoated, discriminated against, held up, beat down, denied a job, a loan or a life. And they, too, know how it feels to sit there and watch other people vote upon their very humanity, just as if those other people had a right."

With his standard of comparison you could almost say the same thing about conservatives in Hollywood, single mothers or low-income families in a suburb, circa 1980, or military recruiters in San Francisco.

Posted By Tom M on 16 Nov 2008 04:37 PM
"When they say they'd have no trouble with gay people if they would just stop "flaunting" their sexuality, doesn't it bring to mind all those good ol' boys who said they had no problem with "Nigras" so long as they stayed in their place?"

Okay, this is just silly. To compare these two is moral relativism to the nth degree. "...stayed in their place" was referring to keeping the Black man down. Living in squalor and not climbing any ladder except to emerge from the sewer pits after a long days slog. "Flaunting" their sexuality is referring to public imposition of a lifestyle as if to say "You MUST accept us! How DARE you NOT accept us".

The argument is specious at best, and deliberately misleading at worst. Pitts does this  sometimes, but he's usually better at narrowing his focus to keep the point at hand.

"On the contrary, gay people, like black people, know what it's like to be left out, lied about, scapegoated, discriminated against, held up, beat down, denied a job, a loan or a life. And they, too, know how it feels to sit there and watch other people vote upon their very humanity, just as if those other people had a right."

With his standard of comparison you could almost say the same thing about conservatives in Hollywood, single mothers or low-income families in a suburb, circa 1980, or military recruiters in San Francisco.

Tom:

Let me confess my own double standards. When I see two attractive women making out in a movie, it's pretty hot. However, the male homosexual scenes in "Brokeback Mountain" were difficult for me to watch. Now if an avowed social liberal such as myself has this much trouble, you think there's not a problem with conservatives wanting homosexuals to stay in their place? What planet are you on?

Tom, when Leonard Pitts says,"beat down", he's not speaking figuratively. Matthew Sheppard was beaten to death for the crime of being gay. Please list a single hollywood conservative or a military recruiter that has suffered the same fate. Yeah, you could "almost" say the same thing, but you can't.

Joe

Good lord, Joe. Is that your standard? If there's one or two guys a year that get violent with homosexuals than that becomes similar to slavery? Lynchings? Church burnings.

Sorry, Joe. There's a difference.

Posted By Tom M on 16 Nov 2008 09:17 PM
Good lord, Joe. Is that your standard? If there's one or two guys a year that get violent with homosexuals than that becomes similar to slavery? Lynchings? Church burnings.

Sorry, Joe. There's a difference.

Tom:

Yes, there is a difference in quantity. However, there is no difference in bigotry and hatefullness.

Enshrining bigotry into the state constitutions in the form of "Marriage Amendments" is absolutely no different than laws passed years ago banning whites and blacks from marrying each other. Decent people wrongly found Blibical support for each.

Like the bumper sticker says. "I love Jesus, it's his followers I can't stand."

Joe