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The Dems and Fair Taxes
Last Post 21 Sep 2008 10:04 PM by Kelsey Crisp. 113 Replies.
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Chris
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| 27 Aug 2008 09:53 AM |
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Yeah it was long winded but it was late.
I have no evidence Bush or his people lied. At best, I have evidence that a whole bunch of intelligence agencies around the world screwed the pooch.
And I wasn't decieved anyway, because I didn't want to go into Iraq because of the WMD, I wanted to go in because of who Saddam was and the what...13 UN sanction violations. Where I blame Bush is for not doing it all the way, and instead backing off when the heat from the Democrats got too much, thus prolonging the restoration period.
I can defend Bush because he hasn't done a single thing out of the ordinary that any other politician wouldn't have done in his place. Some of it has done good, some of it has done bad, but since the media hammers us with the bad we assume he's the devil incarnate come to Earth to usurp our freedom. |
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Todd Wheeler
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| 27 Aug 2008 09:55 AM |
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The "Laffer curve" is a hoax ! It has it's place in economic theory, but we are not taxed at a level high enough for tax cuts to pay for themselves, much less increase government revenue. "Conservatives" point to increases in revenue as "proof" of the theory, but the relationship is coincidental, not causal. Revenues would have increased more without the tax cuts. Tax cuts can increase economic growth, but they don't increase tax revenue.
Todd |
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Tom M
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| 27 Aug 2008 04:09 PM |
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Economic growth doesn't increase revenues?
Mine do (does?).
All I need now is more economic growth. |
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| "Our doubts are traitors and make us lose the good we oft might win, by fearing to attempt." - Shakespeare |
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Kowboy
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| 27 Aug 2008 05:53 PM |
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Posted By Todd Wheeler on 08/27/2008 9:55 AM
The "Laffer curve" is a hoax ! It has it's place in economic theory, but we are not taxed at a level high enough for tax cuts to pay for themselves, much less increase government revenue. "Conservatives" point to increases in revenue as "proof" of the theory, but the relationship is coincidental, not causal. Revenues would have increased more without the tax cuts. Tax cuts can increase economic growth, but they don't increase tax revenue.
Todd Todd: "Hoax" huh?: "Democratic liberals who have sainted John Maynard Keynes for a great many good reasons are silent when you bring up Keynes's argument that because of the law of diminishing returns, no tax rate should be higher than 25 percent. The concept behind the Laffer Curve is as old as civilization. There is nothing crackpot about it." http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1230Joe |
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Wags
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| 27 Aug 2008 06:42 PM |
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Todd, may I assume your at odds with JFK, he also lowered taxes and increased revenue. And perhaps Costco and Wal Mart and others have the wrong idea, lower prices (taxes) increase revenue and profits. Guess 100% would bring in the maximum revenue. May I ask how old you are? Have you experienced the growth lower taxes bring and the added revenue the government enjoys from doing so ?
How do you feel about an International "Poverty Tax" that Obama has agreed in principle with. A tax on the rich nations ( USA) by the UN to be distributed to the poor nations. We all know what a wonderful organization the UN is, and how accountable they are.
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Wags
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| 27 Aug 2008 06:45 PM |
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Joe, even more than that, it just "Makes common sense"
What else is logical is Eliminate all income taxes and institute a sales tax. Eliminates the Underground economy, those with more money to spend pay more taxes, everyone pays there "fair share" and puts a lot of lawyer and accountants out of business. And we save the cost of preparing tax forms. |
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Andy
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| 28 Aug 2008 01:51 AM |
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Posted By Wags on 08/27/2008 6:45 PM
Joe, even more than that, it just "Makes common sense"
What else is logical is Eliminate all income taxes and institute a sales tax. Eliminates the Underground economy, those with more money to spend pay more taxes, everyone pays there "fair share" and puts a lot of lawyer and accountants out of business. And we save the cost of preparing tax forms. With the sales tax system, are there deductions and do you have property tax?
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Andy
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| 28 Aug 2008 01:52 AM |
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Posted By Chris on 08/27/2008 9:53 AM Yeah it was long winded but it was late.
I have no evidence Bush or his people lied. At best, I have evidence that a whole bunch of intelligence agencies around the world screwed the pooch.
And I wasn't decieved anyway, because I didn't want to go into Iraq because of the WMD, I wanted to go in because of who Saddam was and the what...13 UN sanction violations. Where I blame Bush is for not doing it all the way, and instead backing off when the heat from the Democrats got too much, thus prolonging the restoration period.
I can defend Bush because he hasn't done a single thing out of the ordinary that any other politician wouldn't have done in his place. Some of it has done good, some of it has done bad, but since the media hammers us with the bad we assume he's the devil incarnate come to Earth to usurp our freedom. What he said.
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Todd Wheeler
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| 28 Aug 2008 11:59 AM |
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I'm not saying tax cuts don't stimulate the economy, but they don't increase government revenue. http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0625/p15s01-cogn.html?page=2
Another supply-side theory, now less popular, was voiced by Bush in February 2006: "You cut taxes, and the tax revenues increase."
The theory is that with lower marginal tax rates, people work harder and longer, thereby raising their income – and paying more taxes on it.
But even top Bush economic advisers now reject that thesis.
"I certainly would not claim that tax cuts pay for themselves," Edward Lazear, the current chair of the Council of Economic Advisers, has stated. Edward Lazear is the chief economic adviser to President Bush. http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Story/Story.aspx?dist=newsfinder&siteid=google&guid=%7BB18C218C-3ED7-4514-898C-F7B2D24FAB43%7D&keyword=&print=true&dist=printTop
"As a general rule, I don't believe that tax cuts pay for themselves," Paulson said, echoing the opinion of most economists. Paulson said the 2001 tax cuts, however, were crucial to boosting the confidence of consumers, investors and top executives. Henry Paulson is the current Treasury secretary http://logicizer.blogtownhall.com/default.aspx?mode=post&g=f48d2bf3-1c51-4592-aa46-191f089d752fTodd |
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Wags
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| 28 Aug 2008 04:56 PM |
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Andy, Property taxes are a subject for each state. Im speaking about a Federal Sales Tax.. No deductions, just some categories are either not taxed or taxed at a different rate. IE Food, no taxes, restaurants taxed, drugs no taxes, botox taxed. Forbes is the father of this movement I believe.
Tax cuts, stimulate the economy and allow for increased jobs and hence increased revenue. You have to look at the economy as a whole not individuals. A growing economy will increase revenue, one way to grow an economy is to allow more money in the hands of the folks that earned it. If the Dems didn't feel the say way, why did they vote for the Tax "Stimulas package. Problem is, we have 50% of the population that does not pay taxes. When people that pay no taxes realise they can vote themselve free stuff ( as the Dems promise) then the system is doomed.
Up untill Johnsons "Great Society" we had no welfare as we have come to know it... Welfare was handled by religious and fraternal organizations. And we didn't have a sector of our society that relied on the government to take care of them. You had problems, you got help and you got off the dole. Now we have generations that are kept on the welfare system because the system WANTS them to remain on it. Its in the Dems best interest to "buy" votes by promoting class warfare, telling people that they "deserve" it and that the Bad Republicans want them to die in the streets homeless and starving to death. When did a house, or a meal or healthcare become a right you received when you were born? How about a car... how about a really nice car, not just some cheap car... Im as good as the "Rich" guy, he had all the breaks. So the "elite" dems take from the rich (working folks), (but give themselves loop holes so they don't pay them) and give to the poor, ( the lazy). One more reason they want to allow all the immigrants into this country....more voters.. once you reach critical mass were doomed as a society. It's called Socialism folks... its called Obama. |
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Todd Wheeler
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| 28 Aug 2008 06:08 PM |
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This is not some lefty conspiracy theory, Bush's own economists say tax cuts don't pay for themselves. They stimulate the economy, but the expansion only covers about a third of the lost revenues.
Chairman Bernanke. I don't think that as a general rule tax cuts pay for themselves. http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=109_senate_hearings&docid=f:29738.wais
Bernanke testimony before Congress, Janurary, 2007:
The general view is tax cuts don't pay for themselves.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB116913177480880296.html?mod=home_whats_news_us
Mr. Greenspan: Well, Congressman, I think the general conclusion about the fact that revenues are lower than they would otherwise be without the tax cut, but higher because of the tax cut, is best described by saying that a tax cut will immediately lose revenue, and then to the extent that it increases economic activity and generates a larger revenue base will gain some of it back. It is very rare, and very few economists believe that you can cut taxes and you will get the same amount of revenues. But it is also the case that if you cut taxes, you will not lose all the revenue that is implicit in the so-called static analysis.
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=108_house_hearings&docid=f:95792.wais
Todd
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Todd Wheeler
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| 28 Aug 2008 07:37 PM |
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I'm not an economist, or an accountant (as some may have guessed), but it seems to me a federal sales tax would discourage capital investment. I bought a Striebig panel saw last year, and over the next several years I will depreciate the value of that saw and receive a tax break, thus reducing the actual cost. Without that incentive I would be less likely to make that purchase.
Todd |
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Linda
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| 28 Aug 2008 07:46 PM |
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Wags,
It is nice to have someone call Obama's ideas what they really are.
It's called Socialism folks... its called Obama.
I have been wondering when someone would use the word. I am not opposed to different points of view but the Dems need to man up and call their plan by it's rightful name. If they just simply said, "The change we want is Socialism", at least that would be honest.
Unfortunately, I don't think most of the people in that audience in Denver know what Socialism is or they do not understand that it is completely different that what our country has always been about.
Of course, it has been trending that way since FDR.
Linda
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| Linda
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Wags
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| 28 Aug 2008 08:42 PM |
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But Todd, you took advantage of the poor, you Rich Guy took a tax break that the poor can't take, thats not fair. You need to send 110% of your tax break to the poor folk, I mean, you gotta make it fair.........right? :) ..
Im not sure how Forbes has it laid out. Since Business's really don't pay taxes, they are just the middle man, I may even suggest Business pays no sales tax. ALL Taxes are paid by individuals, not companies. |
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Lenny E
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| 28 Aug 2008 09:19 PM |
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Hi Guys,
Its taxation without representation. We elect these idiots and they never do anything they promise. MAybe we should call it taxation by misrepresentation.
Im thniking Wags has the right idea, lets get the pitchforks, tar and feathers and head to DC. Theme music by AC/DC of course.
As TJ said, God forbid the country be 50 years without a revolution.
Its been way too long. Lets Tar and feather the miscreants, and march them out of town, prodded by pitchforks.
Lenny
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Todd Wheeler
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| 29 Aug 2008 12:36 AM |
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Are you referring to Steve Forbes?
As I recall he advocated a flat tax (income), not a national sales tax.
Todd
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Lenny E
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| 29 Aug 2008 02:34 AM |
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Hi Todd,
Thanks for putting words in my mouth, if you dont mind, (edited by moderator), in good ole Texas fashion.
Flat Tax, thats cool, Im for it.
What Im talking about is REVOLUTION. We are tired of the BS and we arent gonna take it anymore.
Geez, repubs, Demos, whats the diff? They all go to the same Ivy league schools, wear the same tie, belong to the same fraternitys, and have the same secret exclusive club handshake. They are spolied rich boys removed from the people.
Is anyone satisfied with the choice of dweebs offerred in this election?
Geez,
Lenny
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Todd Wheeler
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| 30 Aug 2008 01:03 AM |
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Lenny,
I hope you meant to say "You took the words right out of my mouth."
It was never my intention to put words into your mouth, or misquote anyone else. Please edit or retract that statement.
"You say you want a revolution
well, you know
we all want to change the world..."
John Lennon
Todd
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Todd Wheeler
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| 30 Aug 2008 05:12 PM |
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Wags,
I'm not sure I understand your statement ...
"Since Business's really don't pay taxes, they are just the middle man, I may even suggest Business pays no sales tax. ALL Taxes are paid by individuals, not companies."
As a business owner I pay lots of taxes, it could be said that business pays all taxes and individuals pay none because I must compensate my employees at a level such that they can pay taxes. Not that that's my position, but it seems like a similar argument.
Lenny,
I hope my previous post didn't come across as harsh or angry, that was not my intent, I just don't want to be accused of putting words in someone's mouth.
Todd
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Chris Yaughn
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| 30 Aug 2008 11:54 PM |
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Todd,
I am guessing that Wags response would ask, where do you get the the money from which you pay taxes? If you print it, or have a special tree pleeease call me.  . If you are dependant on your customers to provide this money to you then we are competing on the same plane.
Business' only collect taxes from customers and send them on to the gummint. |
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